Can distractions help you become a more focused artist?
Why does speed seem like such a waste of time?
Do you draw in “The Beginner Style?”
…and how can you avoid the most common drawing mistakes?
Life Drawing Expert Stan Prokopenko joins me today on The Oatley Academy ArtCast…
Listen To The Episode:
[ download the mp3 ] [ subscribe in iTunes ]
Awesome Links:
Watch our Playlist of Recommended Proko Videos
The Talent Code by Daniel Coyle
Talent is Overrated by Geoff Colvin
Music composed and performed by Storybook Steve
Share Your Most Productive Distractions!
Stan shared how vital “cross-training” can be for artists.
…blending ideas and techniques from other fields of study to help you become a more unique and focused artist.
What is one non-art practice that has made you a better artist or storyteller?
Tell us about it in the comments below!
Loved this interview! I really enjoyed Stan’s story!
My non-art practice that helped me become a better artist would be ballet dancing. I started about two years ago and it helped me a lot with understanding how the human body works. Also it helped me tons with shooting my own reference. In ballet you are constantly posing towards the audience, so you learn what makes an interesting angle for your own reference photos.
That is a great example, Nienke!
Long-time listeners of the show might remember that this show probably wouldn’t even exist without the years I worked in pro audio at Guitar Center!
…and that certainly felt like years of distraction from my goal of becoming a professional Visual Storyteller.
But, now, audio production is a huge part of my job!
Thank you for sharing!
Dance is a wise distraction! There are things you learn from moving your body that would be extremely difficult to learn from moving a pencil (at least for me). 🙂
Heck yesssss!
Thanks for a great interview, Stan and Chris.
A cross disciplinary thingy I do is listen to audiobooks like a possessed maniac. I don’t recommend the possession but the audiobook thing is pure gold.
Plus, it’s free if you listen through your local library. A lot of book are available to stream through the Overdrive app. Peeps can sign up for a library e-card if they don’t like leaving the house too! Also, try leaving the house. The fresh air will do ya good.
Oh yeah, buddy.
I’ve been an Audible.com subscriber for as long as I’ve been doing this podcast and it’s one of the best investments I’ve ever made.
Overdrive is a great free option too – for those to whom that option is available.
What are you listening to right now?
I’m currently in the middle of “Start With Why?” by Simon Sinek. It’s pretty good.
I’m currently finishing book 7 of the Dark Tower series. Last year, I listened to a bunch of classics, some Philip K. Dick short stories collections and rounded out my as then yet unread Stephen King books.
Thanks for the slap in the face, guys. 😉 I’ve repeatedly told myself that audiobooks weren’t for me because I prefer to really sit and think while scarfing down a physical book – but I am always listening to a podcast or something while I work. Maybe I should give it a try again.
I love a physical copy but I’m growing a keen fascination with audiobooks. I love that it forces me to hear all of the written words rather than giving me the ability to skim.
I love this podcast! This episode was very convicting! I found myself getting “stuck” on a “style” for a while now and this really helped me see that for what it is. I want to keep improving and keep learning!
Awww, Eliana! Hugz!!! So glad you like the show.
We all get stuck from time to time… With a positive attitude like yours, I am certain you will continue to improve and learn!
Keep us posted!
This is odd. I just signed up for karate classes this week. XD I just had this gut feeling that I needed to know the discipline.
My most productive distractions are running and horseback riding. I love running because I use it as a metaphor for everything. But horseback riding has a lot of skills that cross over to art-making. Communication is one of them, overcoming fear is another. The nurturing of the relationship between you and the horse is something that must be a daily thing, like drawing practice.
I love this podcast. I’ve been trying to work on fundamentals the past few months. Drawing especially, so this conversation is very timely for me. Great job, team!
So glad you liked the episode, Britny. And that timing is awesome!
I find that riding horses helps me understand the mechanics of animal anatomy in a way that visual observation does not. Also, horses are the BEST.
I can relate, Britny!
Horseback riding also helped me with overcoming fear 😀 So true!
And it’s amazing that you’re starting karate! Please keep me posted on your discoveries <3 I practiced capoeira when I was a kid and it taught me a lot about discipline as well. Showing up and practicing the same moves over and over before learning new ones was so hard and necessary!
Thank you for your kind words 🙂 I'm really happy you enjoyed this episode!
Chris, horses are the BEST. I know exactly what you’re talking about! Understanding the mechanics of movement becomes a whole new study when you’re riding a horse. That dip in the shoulder and the rhythm of pace… can’t observe it any other way. ^_^
Ania, I totally didn’t know that! <3 I shall keep you updated. I literally know nothing about it so far. That's what makes it fun. :3
Distractions. The story of my life, haha.
Chris already knows this, but I originally wanted to direct animated films and I was told that wasn’t an acceptable career goal when you are starting out – that I had to focus on one discipline in the animation pipeline.
So I did it, I pushed myself enough to become a CG character animator at several studios, but on the side I was always experimenting with writing, story, visual development, book making, etc. They are distracting, shiny objects and I want to be a part of them all. I often come back to Stan’s videos, btw. They are awesome!
Strangely enough, now that I’m starting my own animation studio, these things are coming together in surprising ways. 🙂
The best decision I made was to write a book to pitch as a film. I seemed like a distraction at first, but once I finished it, the studios immediately understood what I was trying to do.
Awesome episode, btw. Stan is the perfect guest!
What a lovely story, thank you for sharing, Scott! 😀
Interesting how all those “shiny objects” are coming together. The same thing happens to me! I am so fascinated with design, quality of life, productivity and children’s books… and now that’s coming together in one project for me too! And it feels so refreshing 🙂
I’m looking forward to seeing where your projects take you, Scott! You’re amazing 😀
Scott, your book “Vanishing Ink” is amazing!! I just finished reading it a few days ago. March onward! It deserves to be a film.
Nice! Thanks for telling me! Glad you enjoyed it. I personally think my next book is better suited for the screen, but thanks for your kindness!
Great to hear, Scott. Yeah, I eventually reached the point in my career where I realized that my wide range of interests was a blessing and not a curse. A balloon without a string isn’t much fun. …and vice versa: the string isn’t much fun without the balloon.
Ahhh … that quote takes me back to the paperwings podcast days.
I am such a nerd for graphic novels for middle grade and adults as well as manga/manhwa. I am never not reading anything in my free time. My appetite for reading is certainly my biggest distraction that pulls be away from my art, but in my opinion it’s at least educating myself as to how to frame sequential art panels and actually forces me to pay attention to how people pace out the actions in their short and longer stories.
As an aspiring children’s book illustrator, and picture book designer by day, I am constantly heightened to how other artists pace their stories and try to apply it to my own art and stories.
A children’s book illustrator who loves to read graphic novels! Sounds like a healthy distraction! 🙂
Great insights, Erica
Thanks for your posts, Erica and Scott! Yeah, I find it fascinating – the inherent qualities of the various Visual Storytelling formats. …what comics vs. illustrated prose, animation vs. games, etc.
Great cast! In my case, doing some amateur acting in my younger days sharpened my eye for body language, lighting, facial expression, and the like. Being a parent certainly put a new spin on my observation of people, and how evasive faithful depiction of children can be. Having a love of cars and motorcycles motivated my desire to render them accurately, feeding my need for advanced knowledge of perspective and structure.
Funny thing is that I find it hard to just practice for it’s own sake. I need a little scenario of some kind at least to motivate myself to take pencil, pen, stylus, brush, whatever, in hand.
I can relate, David. For me, solving specific problems is far more motivating than routine.
A really good episode! Though most of us know it, I loved the reminder of actually observing whats around us! It’s so true when cartooning, you get so caught up in the symbols rather than creating unique designs! My school is uh… guilty of the did the whole bit of “oh, just add more shapes to it” a lot.
I think my non-practice skill that helped me would be playing the trumpet. Before I finally committed to doing art instead of becoming a band instructor, I was in orchestras, competitions and other various activities that required massive amounts of dedication and discipline to the craft to keep myself in top form. Which of course influenced my perspective on a lot of things, such as setting strict guidelines and schedules for myself when it comes to improving my art. So yes, I wholeheartedly agree that “cross-training” is vital for artists. 🙂
Thanks for your post, Sarah! Great point about symbols. Even our symbols improve when we know how to draw the real thing!
Thanks for a great podcast! You both make learning so much fun!
I have been figure skating for many years. It helps me to focus. I have a hard time sitting still. Now I don’t have much time to skate for my self but as a coach, I learn so much about people and especially kids. Through figure skating, I have learned how to balance your body through different poses. It has not transferred yet to my drawing skills l but I believe it will someday. I am signing up for Proko’s anatomy class.
I also work with horses as a volunteer with equestrian therapy. This is therapy for me as it can be very calming. One of the horses whose name is “Shadow” hates to be alone. Horses have such transparent expressions. I have learned a lot about myself while working with them. And now I am working on a small project that involves drawing a horse.
Love hearing your perspective on figure skating, Melissa!
…and yes, the horse and dog friends I’ve had in my life have helped me to understand myself and to become a better person.
Thank you for sharing!
I honestly never saw the whole ‘I am self taught” in that way before but I think that’s because I’ve never met anyone who thought like that I think. Maybe I did when I was younger but it didn’t really trigger me when he was talking about it.
I myself have only one professionally instructed class under my belt but have numerous books and have looked at a lot of resources. Using my growth as where to look at, my skill went up by leaps and bounds with that one class. I don’t think college or university is for everyone bUT education is and I think that’s the problem theses days. Some schools curriculum is questionable (some examples in the art cast) so I think people have tied their bad school experiences to education and that’s why you meet people that are so against taking curriculum.
And I think Stan is correct in thinking that the classic style education will stand tall in the end. Time has a way to filter out everything that isn’t great. As macho man would say,”The cream of the crop always RISES to the top!”
Excellent Art Cast today!
That is a great theory about the source of the confusion surrounding this idea of being “self taught.” That’s really thought provoking, Manny.
So glad you liked the show and thank you for sharing your perspectives!
For me playing violin and guitar teach me a lot about the discipline of art. And doing exercise makes me have ideas that doesn’t appear while sitting down.
Agreed on all points, Ivan!
Great topic as always Mr Oatley. I was trying to figure out if any of my distractions are productive and the main one I can think of is watching movies but for me it’s watching movies that I’ve either already seen and draw me back to something I want to preserve in my life or new movies that I think will give me new experiences that will help me stay on the path I want to own most. Podcasts tend to be the same way, but only if I feel like the caster is pulling me in the direction I really want to go. Early on I would watch lots of videos and movies and listen to podcasts and books. Now I can tell early on if the distraction feels fragmenting or taking me off task rather than reminding me why or what I really want out of my time. Thanks Stan & Chris …love you guys.
A thought-provoking and uplifting listen!
My most supportive non-art practice would be Transcendental Meditation & Yoga (especially TM.) Anytime I would get stumped on what to create, or felt overwhelmed by the scope of a project I would close my eyes, meditate and all sorts of solutions would rise from within… Plus learning to sit with yourself in silence (especially for long rounds) is pretty therapeutic, and taught me to be comfortable in my own skin.
Also a daily Yoga practice was essential to loosen my body and me up further to prevent spinal strain or wrist injuries during the long haul of drawing projects. Also just remembering to breathe… I had teachers tell me to hold my breath when making lines. I found this to be pretty uncomfortable. So learning proper breathwork allowed the feeling of slowing down the breath, and my drawing process became more fluid.
Rad ArtCast!
Hello Chris,
I enjoyed this interview with Stan Prokopenko. He is very impressive and influential for drawing and painting. Being in California I recognized his good teachers Glen Villipu and Marshall Vandruff. It is great that Stan also thought beginners art and has done many many Utube videos on teaching.
I don’t know if I have any non art practices that helps me with my art but I do watch a lot of TV and make time for family I am also getting into acrylics painting but I am still copying artist. I paint pictures that I like. I wish to paint portraits in future. I will need more mileage in my practice and learning from you guys and being influenced is great asset. Thanks Chris and Stan.
Awesome cast!! Being here reading all of these comments is so good! Really inspiring! You guys are awesome people!! Thanks for another great interview, Stan, Chris, and the team!!
My biggest distraction that always pulls me away from my art is watching movies and TV shows. Experiencing new contents or even watching the shows that I already watched over and over again, make me always find some new interesting angles. It helps me a ton to rest my brain, and just enjoy what the show tries to tell me a story. What I really enjoy is observing the way that those actors try to communicate. So fascinating!! Not gonna talk about the emotional stuff. Haha
Great job guys!!
Probably singing and playing online games are my supportive non-art distractions. Online games provide this hand and eye coordination— which helps me see the overall artwork well. I find it easier to spot my mistakes. For singing, it has helped me find/ provide the emotion and action on my works. Understand and imagine what action/ emotion would best suit my characters– and put them into different settings.
I loved your episode today. Proko has helped me a lot with my character design– I still do have that fear of pushing myself more, but with his videos, i got to experiment more and not so hard with myself when it comes to art. 😀 More power to your show!
I still need to listen to the episode, so I hope that my answer isn’t off topic:
my weird “practice” from another discipline comes from trying to learn how to play the ocarina (yes, I wanted to play Zelda music). I wasn’t really stressed about it as I am about art, sometimes, so I just went for it.
I tried and tried to practice one particular piece, I think it was Zelda’s lullaby, and there was a passage that I couldn’t get around no matter what. I would get there and my fingers just wouldn’t be fast enough to change from one particular note to another.
Because I didn’t fret about ocarina playing as I do about art, I just thought I’d try Epona’s song and Saria’s song for a while, then I reached another bit that was a bit hairy and went back to Zelda’s lullaby, only to find that the bit I previously found hard was a lot easier.
I’m guessing that there were other finger positions in the other two pieces that somehow “secretly” contributed to my practice for the lullaby, but I just didn’t notice. From then onward, when I found something that I bang my head on in art practice, I decided to prepare a secondary practice topic to go at for a bit and then return to once I’m done and I found that this switching actually helps there as well.
This interview made me remember all the fun moments I had watching Proko’s lessons (I even recommend some to non-artist friends), but also how frustrating it was not finding most of those muscles he describes on my own body 😀 Every since I started working out and climbing and actually using those muscles it is waaaaaay easier to remember them, so that helped me out with drawing. Also Dota2 made me get really good at using my set of photoshop hotkeys ^^
Wow, I’m so super excited to see so many people mentioning dance as their productive distraction. For me, all of my years of dancing as a hobby surely make a diference in two distinct aspects: it helps me understand how the body works, and flows, how can it bend or stretch and which muscles are been using at each time; but also it inspires me to draw fluid, graceful gestures, and characters that are always somehow dancing and moving in an interesting ways. Dancing and circus, my current obsessions, also teach me that every moving body can be beautiful, and that there are many gestures we don’t usually considerar graceful, but with the proper intention, they can be!
In fact, my entire #Inktober was based on pole dancing, another one of my obsessions, and my entire Instagram feed is generally filled with this subject. LOL @maoelacostaartwork
I’ve been working really hard on my anatomy as well, so I think this fits so coincidentally with Proko being on this cast! I do love is channel! Big thanks for that! This community is wonderful.
I follow your thread in the forums, the dance influence really shows through!
I was listening to this podcast and was just laughing because the “cross-training” has been my entire journey. When I feel like I’ve hit an artistic block I will usually put things down for about a week and go sailing, go camping, go hiking, play guitar, compose music, take voice lessons, do some acting pretty much anything that doesn’t “seem” to relate to my visual art. What I’ve noticed however, is that even when I’m not actively working on my visual art I’m still passively working on it. When I come back a week or two later I’m leaps and bounds ahead of where I was. I mention this to say that there really is a lot of truth in cross-training and taking your time to work slowly. It’s good to allow yourself to stop working for a bit if you need to chew on the new information for a little while. The journey is the destination if you let it be :).
Hey there!
It is an interesting conversation, especially because I have made the opposite experience – The academic approach was mostly theory, non practical, at the end the students didn’t know how anything even vaguely worked, as opposed to the people who were “self taught”. But I think that the context of what “academic” means is important. I think this is very interesting since I agree with the overall message. In the context of the ArtCast episode, I’m agreeing with the academic approach on it in general and to learn about the core of the process and how to learn “learning something new”, to get rid of the “BS”.
What especially boosted my recent development was being tired of trying to be quick enough – and it is exactly that as to why I am mostly working traditionally for personal projects and practise, since the digital tools are too tempting to try all sorts of methods and shortcuts, and I enjoy sinking my teeth into the process of a drawing or a painting itself, which traditional media forces me to do. I’m glad that this basically has been approved in the episode, and that it is fine when I am having a day in which I just have to wrestle with the image.
I wish I could have some more conversations like that and to exchange thoughts with more creatives out there, sadly it seems that there is a lot of hesitance to speak out the mind.
And to answer the question of the non art distraction that keeps me focussed – This is a very good question. I mostly walk around the house and keep my thoughts spinning and moving. I have noticed that I tend to solve a problem a lot more efficiently when I “think without thinking”. What I mean by that is, that if I just keep my thoughts running without them forming words, visuals or sounds, but it basically becoming a sort of instinct, the full solution of the problem approaches me a lot earlier and the moment of suddenly “seeing” the issue pops up. When I then return to the image, I am doing a step forward. Although it doesn’t always work, especially when I try to force the solution to show up, it is the best thing that worked for me. Just wandering around away from the workspace, not forming thoughts via words within, but just letting the brain “flow” and trusting my “instinct” to work out what I need to work out. This is what helped me out so far. What I want to learn instead of the “endless growing bigger and stronger” approach of improvement, is to apply what I am already capable of in a more efficient way. To get rid of the “inner middleman”, the voice that translates my thoughts into words, in order to have no delay between my thoughts and my body moving (the hand swinging the pencil or brush). I have the feeling that all it needs is to have trust in the own artistic instinct. Which is not easy, I know that self doubt is a big issue for everybody I know so far.
Hope that makes sense. All the best to everybody! See ya!
Not sure if this fits, but a major distraction I have is photography mixed with everything and expanding the photography with Photoshop. While working on a drawing I will start to wonder about lighting and start to photograph things to get different perspectives on lighting. I also started carving things out of wood and then started lighting and photographing the things I carved out of wood in different ways. But it all seems to lead back to drawing in one way or another. I am also starting to draw digitally on my photos. I usually just do simple sketches on the digital photo and several hours later will realize I just spent a whole day on it and still feel pretty good about it. So I guess photography and wood carving is working out to be a great distraction for me.
Lord. I’m a cross-training maniac.
25 years playing the Viola
Aerial Silks
Herbalism
Sewing and Millinery
Floral Arranging
Veterinary and Dog Training
Etc etc etc
I used to be worried I was avoiding art (and there were a few times that I was) but ultimately, the worst artist block I ever had was because I stopped all the “distractions” to get “serious” about my art.
Don’t doooo it. Creativity needs fuel.
Great episode, guys! 🙂
Oh, the atelier experience sounds wonderful. I wish we had them here, I’d do it just for the life drawing classes.
I’m not even sure what counts as core passion and what is a distraction in my life, seems like I have a new one every month. Since I’ve given up on being a professional illustrator (because I don’t enjoy doing commissioned work), art is a “distraction” from my design business! But I love them both dearly.
My drawing background has really helped me in my design career, and people are attracted to my work mostly because of the personal art I do.
My digital photo-manipulation feeds into my traditional painting, my calligraphy practice feeds into logo design and mixed media art…
I thrive on learning new techniques. Whenever I feel stuck creatively, I find that practicing a new art form will get me out of the rut.
Hello,
French member here : “atelier” is simply the french word for “workshop”. So it’s not an abstract french thing, it’s just the place where you craft your art with a master.
Thank you for your inspiringinterview, and thank you so much for the resource you provide. Very much appreciated. <3
I really loved listening to this!
Cross training: I was blessed to be homeschooled. One of the great things about homeschooling is all the extra time spent being bored. With that time, I learned to knit, crochet, got an interest in calligraphy, graphic design, economics, linguistics, typography, creative writing, and psychology. Of course, when we’re talking about cross training I have to include all of the things I’m learning in high school–physics, US history, etc.
Each of these subjects (and everything I read about) teach me so much about the ideation process, patience, work ethic, creativity, logic, and everything. Since I love art and am constantly looking for ways to improve, everything I do and see helps my art process, of course. Knitting, for example, taught me patience. It’s great to knit a pair of gloves, but it’s SO REPETITIVE that you really can’t work on it thinking “argghhh when is this going to be finished?!!”. Tiny stitches take a long time, but they’re worth it for the project. Calligraphy is teaching me the importance of precision. I tend to be very messy and sketchy, but I can’t afford that in certain types of calligraphy. Calligraphy forces me to learn patience and control
What’s cooler is that learning about and working on art actually helps my other interests and schoolwork, too.
I learned about the importance of getting down the fundamentals first (the hard way) from art, and that helped my writing. Writing is a little woozier than art. There aren’t clearly defined fundamentals like composition or drawing or lighting. There’s definitely a much looser definition of “good” writing. However, there’s also definitely such a thing as bad writing. We know it when we see it, but we don’t know why. I used to question the necessity of learning the “fundamentals” of writing and being restricted from passive voice, because established authors seemed to violate those rules all the time. What I’ve learned from art is that we study fundamentals in everything not to be limited by them, but so we can be more tasteful when we “break” established rules, and do so with purpose. This episode definitely reinforced that and encouraged me to work on figure drawing more…
There’s so much more art has done for me, but I don’t want to post too long.
Thank you very much!
What a great episode!
Having started my art path with traditional figure drawing, the whole academic approach discussion was very interesting to me. Here in Brazil it seems that a lot of university and atelier courses linger on that wonderland aspect of “everything goes”, etc. Fine art courses are getting less live drawing session hours each time, and in some cases they’re not even obligatory any more. I’m lucky to have found teachers who either specialized in figure drawing, or at least are happy enought to guide me on the kind of work I like to do.
As for other practices, I’ve been training, and now teaching, kung fu for over 20 years now, andthere are certainly a lot of aspects in common with art (it’s called a martial ART, after all). From learning the discipline and hard work, to having more awareness of how our body works to better represent it.
Thank you Chris and Stan, for the wonderful conversation!
I have started seriously drawing later in life after a career as an electronics engineer. I think my engineering drawing and design experience has helped me in the discipline of drawing.
I have watched most of the Proko YouTube videos and will begin his premium course in a couple of weeks.
There are some good YouTube videos out there but his is the best ongoing study I’ve come across.
This is the first time I’ve ever heard this podcast-I can’t believe what I was missing! I really enjoyed all of the great perspective on academics, being “self taught”, motivation, productive distractions…everything was great!
As far as my one distraction that’s helped with my art…it’s so hard for me to choose just one! Alongside being an artist, I am also a writer and a musician. I feel like my creativity funnels through all the different things I do-sometimes if I feel myself reaching a wall in my art, I take a step back and play guitar, write poetry, or simply take a walk outside. It’s so important to not allow myself to settle into a routing in my art to the point that nothing is changing. Without change, there can’t be growth. Anyway, I really enjoyed this podcast and will definitely be listening in more in the future!
Non-art activity? Well, I guess music, even though it is still artistic, is a good lesson on just sticking with the discipline to maintain skills and get better. It is the same with drawing, painting, and being visually creative.
Thanks for bringing up the “beginner’s style”. As one who teaches art, it is common for me to hear both students and teachers say that there is no right and wrong with art, or good or bad. This, I think, goes along with the idea of being self-taught. This type of thinking is so limiting to developing artists and propagates laziness and incompetence.
I’m a newbie in this field for about a year. My non-art activity I studied was dance. I studied ballet and contemporary dance for many years. I feel if it wasn’t for that cross-training, I wouldn’t have the discipline to do this. Dance gave me the practice and confidence especially when dealing with failures, which helped me when studying the fundamentals. I see know difference in dance and this field what- so- ever. You still have to have patience, drive and focus to learn. When people ask me why I didn’t pursue dance professionally, I tell them I’m already dancing in my art.
I’ve been doing standup and Improv comedy.
It’s a fun distraction that helps with cartooning.
This was interesting to listen to and think about. The whole “self-taught” rant has me a bit on edge though. I started figure drawing in high school, but at a dinky, no-frills local art league, with no instructors. That’s what I could afford, and that’s what was available. I’ve continued this practice for the past 20 years, at various other leagues and sessions. I wasn’t able to go to art school (or any college for that matter), but I’m now a full-time working artist.
I’m regularly asked “where did you go to school?”, even now at 35, as if that defines and validates my skill and career.
I don’t use the phrase “self-taught” because it’s over-used I guess. But I also don’t know what to tell people.
It’s a tricky conversation and I guess I just found the negativity surprising.
Finally caught up to this episode! 🙂
My productive distraction is swing and ballroom dancing! My understanding of movement and silent communication between people improved soo much from all of my time dancing.
I know not many people will get to see this comment because it’s so late, but I highly recommend finding a local swing dance group of it appeals to you at all. They tend to be welcoming environments where everyone is learning and having fun, whatever their experience level 🙂