So you trashed your last project and started over… …and then again. …and then again.
…is that because you just aren’t meant to be an artist?
…or is it simply because you’re ambitious?
So you spent your weekend sleeping instead of drawing… Is that lazy? …or healthy?
Are you blocked? …or just solving the wrong problem?
Is failure useful for you? …or destructive?
Today on The Oatley Academy ArtCast, we share five “Failure Flip Tips” to help you turn failure into a tool that’s just as useful as your favorite pencil…
Listen To The Episode:
[ download the mp3 ] [ subscribe in iTunes ]
Join Us For Our 10th Anniversary Celebration!
2018, marks the ten-year anniversary of The ArtCast!
If The ArtCast has a special place in your heart, please join us for our 10th Anniversary Celebration where you’ll get a sneak peek at our new album art, hear our new theme song and receive an invitation to our Birthday Party…
Awesome Links:
Ânia Marcos | Ejiwa (Edge) Ebenebe | Sarah Mills | Maike Venhofen | Chris Oatley
Harding’s Lessons on Drawing: A Classic Approach by J. D. Harding
Don’t Fear Placebos by Seth Godin
Music by Storybook Steve and Kangaralien
Share Your Thoughts…
Whose “Failure Flip Tip” resonated with you most strongly and why?
Please tell us in the comments below!
The story that touched me the most was about the man taking the pill. This is because for the longest time I was very worried about failure. I made it a point to not fail when I was in art school. Because a teacher told me I would never make it. I faild hard. Which made me think that I was trash. This thinking made me slow my artistic growth, and I almost quit.I almost killed my artistic soul.
It’s amazing how common this is – art teachers with no respect for the power of their own influence. Makes me crazy…
Though I hate that you had to deal with that, it certainly didn’t take away your resilience, remarkable positivity and emotional generosity.
…and I’m delighted that you found your way to OA. It’s a better place with you here, Hervonia.
*Hugs* Thank you Chris.
GUYS!
THANK YOU! I missed that Storybook Steve song and listening to all your beautiful voices! This message of embracing failure is something we constantly need to hear and be reminded of!
And I am SO GLAD you talked about Seth’s Akimbo Podcast!! I recommend listening to EVERY SINGLE episode of his podcast. All episodes are inspiring and direct to leading you to become a professional that does meaningful work. Another episode I recommend that directly connects to this ArtCast episode is the “No such thing (as writer’s block)”. You won’t regret listening to it!
I’ve been listening and reading a LOT of Seth Godin lately and every time I listen to him I realize how much of a great human being you are Chris, for doing work that matters; by helping artists discover themselves and evangelizing about a more human Art education. That definitely is not easy work and yet you and the team do it anyway and that is so inspiring! Thank you for doing the difficult work that the world needs!
Personally, your podcast has helped me become a better human being, with the passion and friendship you bring into it and I don’t know if I can ever repay for all you guys have done!
Alright enough gushing, hehe! I’ve been really introspective lately about how to go and do work that is meaningful and fulfilling not only to me, but to others as well. So you’re always the first example my mind jumps to when thinking about that! That led me into creating some really fun projects that I plan to start immediately, that’s not meant for me, but for helping others. But that’s another tangent haha!
This is incredibly encouraging to hear, Elly. We give it everything we’ve got. …and I know you do too. I’m excited to hear about where this recent inspiration leads you. Thank you for the years of friendship and support. See you soon!
Elly! Thank you so much for your kind words. You just made my day 😀
Can’t wait to see where your new projects take you. So exciting!
Much love <3 <3 <3
Hey! it’s the least I could do Ms. Ninja of awesomeness!
All the love and hugs!
Elly, man, I’m gonna copy/paste your comment, cos it’s exactly how I feel. 😉
Ahahahha do it Craig! You can even say that it was all your words too 😛
Nicely said. Ditto!
This art cast came at a good time 🙂 I can get down on myself and have to straighten out my thinking from time to time. Quite a few of my friends have already transitioned from their temporary day jobs to the job they actually wanted and I haven’t had a door open up for me yet. Sometimes my self worth and career dreams get a little muddled and I feel stuck and frustrated.
But I love how this art cast re-frames failure as a stepping stone taking you forward instead of an indication that you’re not enough and left behind the pack. I feel encouraged when I hear stories of pros who collected all their rejection letters before they made a break through, and just used each rejection as fuel to keep going.
Thank you SO much for sharing, Cassandra! As Kazu implied on Twitter, it can be sOOO challenging to keep failure from sabotaging our sense of self-worth.
Do you mind me asking where to which industry you’ve been applying?
Though animation is, as they say, highly competitive, persistence and skill *do* pay off…
I’ve been applying as a visual development artist to various animation companies here in South Africa. I’ve received good feedback on my portfolio and also my comic, but the industry here is very tiny and there’s just no positions open at the moment. A lot of my friends here have managed to get into concept art/ vis-dev already.
But I’ve been saving a lot and I hope to come to CTNX this November 🙂 want to try and spread my wings beyond what’s local.
OMG – failure isn’t a waste of time!
I’m so conscious of time, and how I spend it. When I fail, I feel bad NOT because I failed but because I WASTED time.
But if failure isn’t a waste of time, then it’s not a bad thing and therefore, it’s not a scary thing.
Need this tattooed on my wrist.
Thanks for the awesome podcast. 🙂
Yes, Sarah! …when doing my first edit pass on Ania’s story, I reached that point and got *chills*!!! So clear. So intense. SO important to remember. Thank you for sharing!
Yay! 😀
I’m so glad my tip resonated with you, Sarah <3 I used to feel the same way.
Thank you so much for sharing 🙂 Hug!
Thank you for this episode! This is something I really needed to hear; The story that resonated the most with me was that of the pill, I understand how strong our minds can be, I’m so afraid of failure that I find it hard to admit my mistakes, as if denying them were to change the reality that I failed.
I’m starting to change the way I see my failures, to accept that it’s ok to fail so I can move on, and this episode has helped me to focus on what can we learn from our mistakes instead of feeling shame or guilt.
Thanks again!!!!
That is great to hear, Ana! Yes, it can be really painful to admit that we’ve failed, but you’re absolutely right that failure is, in and of itself, progress. You’re very welcome and thank you for sharing!
The comment that resonated with me the most was where Sarah said that sometimes we are taking on too many elements to try to improve on when doing a personal project. Breaking down what to focus on helps you have the little successes you need to motivate and inspire you to keep moving forward.
Awesome, Jaison. Great to see you here. Having known you for a couple years now, it seems like this comes naturally to you. Is that true or did you have to change your own thought process about this (vis a vis failure and problem solving) at any point in the past?
I know that I need to work on my drawing skills but I really am more drawn at this time to improve my painting skills which is why I currently paint other peoples drawings. When I would I try to take on both I would feel inside that I would feel happy by what I achieved in the painting but when I knew the drawing was off, I put down my achievement rather than internally celebrating it.
I learned this over time by being on the site. One day I will try to do more epic paintings but for right now I need epic little success to keep me motivated and focused.
Yas! Hearing you guys talking about this is so useful and recomforting. I felt terrible about my ego last year, depression striked and I felt paralyzed to create — ‘what if my next comic strip fails?! What if nobody likes what I do anymore?! What if everybody finds out that Im a failure!?’
It’s not easy to fight those demons but I’ve been feeling better since I made a councious choice not to seek the feeling of approval social media can give (and take away). In the end it’s all about making mistakes and try to figure out how to fix them.
Thanks for the inspiration, again!
Thank you, Marta! That’s very encouraging to hear 🙂
I’m so sorry you went through such a hard time but so glad that you powered through and keep on creating art! Thank you for sharing, you’re super inspiring <3 <3 <3
You're a wonderful person and artist, and I'm so glad to have met you. OA is brighter thanks to you. Hug!!
Hey guys! This is soooo good. I can second Edge’s recommendation to treat yourself with respect. I can also second the notion to separate your work from your self-worth. Both of those thoughts have helped me tremendously in the past. Especially resting. Sleep rules. Resting is great. Adult nap time is best nap time.
I want to see what you guys think about the relationship between humor and failure. To me, humor can ease the tensions of failure. On the other hand, it can also aggravate the wound.
How do you use humor to think about your work and your self?
Defining your meaning of success really resonated with me. Success to me is being able to connect with, and inspire, people in ways unique to me. The way I tell stories, or talk about my experiences, my failures and my passions, (cough.. worldbuilding).
Sometimes our path of success merges with others and to continue we need to follow that path and meet their expectations. That’s ok if that’s the path we choose, because when we come to our fork in the road we can diverge and continue on our own journey. To be successful I need to learn so I also equate success with learning, not just in art but in life.
So If success = learning, and learning = failure, then success = failure.
While this might seem a contradiction to some, learning what not to do or what doesn’t work is more beneficial to me then immediately gettings things right. I can fall back on a previous failure to help me overcome and solve a problem in the future. You can still have a fear of failing, just acknowledge that fear and embrace it, but don’t let it stop you from learning. My favorite quote about fear comes from Dune:
“ Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
I’ll stop here before I go on a too much of a rant…….
Thanks for such an insightful and inspiring podcast.
This Art cast was really inspiring especially since I’m working a huge project and it’s easy to get down about it. It was really freeing to just think, “Wow, now I’m going to decide to fail at this project because I’ll learn so many things from it!” The art failure flip tip that I loved the most was Chris Oatley’s. It just really resonated with how I was feeling. Also Edge’s story. Because I get this sense that if I don’t do all that I said I was going to do in a day and if I don’t get THIS thing done by THIS month I’m gonna fail. And that really isn’t a good way to think about it. Obviously I’m going to try my hardest to get everything done with in my deadline, but I’m going into it knowing that the best thing I can do is fail. Thank you so much Chriss and the rest of that gang for everything you’ve taught me. You inspired me to get into writing! and to start my own animated short! This has been a tremendous learning process and I haven’t enjoy eeeevery step of the way, but I know where I’m going. Thank you so much!
It’s hard to pick, but:
Edge’s story resonated most recently with me because I’ve been doing/going through EXACTLY what she was talking about in the last few months.
I have a Google Calendar schedule and would beat myself up if I didn’t adhere to the blocks of studio time and project work I had planned ahead for myself. Things seemed to start clicking better when I took into account how drained I felt from the day job on specific days, and thinking about what my energy levels are like throughout a typical week.
I’ve always been skeptical of the odd “work yourself until you break” artist culture, because if your body is the only tool you have to make art, then why would you risk destroying it? People regularly maintain their cars, which are also an important tool, but not their bodies and minds…
I’ve been compromising with my inner critic lately by reflecting on what I DO accomplish every day…which helps frame failure in a context of “where to go next”. Mr. IC is always a tough customer, though, especially when it comes to seeing so much lovely, seemingly productive artists on social media.
Happy 10th! Hard to believe it was only a few years old when I first discovered the ArtCast. 🙂
You guys have always been a light I can look to when I’m in need of some reaffirmation and motivation.
Thanks for the inspiring episode. It hit home on so many levels. I have recently been failing a lot. Failed writing, and lots of rejections from publishers and agents. And I’m not going to lie, it’s been discouraging, and I’ve gotten down on myself.
Ania, thank you for reminding me that failure is not a waste of time.
Maike, thank you for reminding me that sometimes we need to fail in one way to be able to push ourselves to grow in another way.
Chris, thank you for reminding me that we have to be careful about what we say and believe about ourselves. Thank you for sharing the story about the placebo guy and reminding us about the effect that our thoughts have on our bodies and creative spirits. I love what you said about being proactive and changing the conversation that’s going on in our heads and using failure as a useful tool. Thank you for the reminder to NOT connect failure to our self worth. Sometimes that’s hard to do. Right now that has been hard for me to do. So this has been really good for me to listen to.
Edge, thank you for the advice to take care of ourselves. That is so important. I learned the hard way when I wasn’t taking care of myself. It’s something I don’t want to go through again. Learning from our failures. Thanks everyone for the great episode. It was timely for me.
Shawna I was just thinking of you! I can still hear your voice It mustbe really difficult for you guys who present to us so much positivity, flexibility and fighting spirit, when we forget the enduring part. Wouldn’t be a journey if it were all end results.
You go girl! Fighting! I want to hear Shawna part 2 on Stories Unbound
Ha! Thanks Neru! It’s great to see you here. Hope you are doing well in your art journey!
Thank you for this great episode! I’ve struggled with a lot of the feelings discussed in this podcast, so it’s really inspiring to hear all the great tips for flipping failure!
Chris’ tip not to connect failure to your self-worth really resonated with me. I am SO guilty of doing this! I have a nasty habit of letting my lack of a studio job or steady freelance work get me down. It can be really paralyzing at its worst.
For anyone who also struggles with this, I have found staying a step ahead of my brain and keeping busy with learning and improving my art really helps me keep my mind off worries about self-worth.
In my day job as an elementary school assistant teacher, we talk a lot to students about the idea of having a “growth mindset” rather than a “fixed mindset”, which I think relates to the failure concept. Instead of adopting an “I’m not good enough because I failed” attitude, we can remember that we hold the key to how we see ourselves and what we do with that going forward.
So where you are at a given point is less important than your attitude toward yourself at that point and your willingness to continue learning. Which makes failure just another step in the learning process as Rich mentioned in his comment above!
BOOM!! This episode was amazing! Exactly what the art doctor recommended. 😀 The tips that were most relevant to me were from Edge and Chris. I always beat myself up for taking it slow during health issues and drive myself harder, which inevitably leads to more health issues and longer time away from art. The placebo phenomenon is something that I experienced several times and I recently documented it too, after which it helped me acknowledge and analyze what I was doing and how to get out of it.
Congratulations for hitting 10 years!! ArtCast was my first step into the art world and I’m beyond grateful to you guys for making it happen. It has impacted my decisions and thoughts so positively that I never thought I’d be taking the roads in my life that I am right now. I wish you guys many more decades of success (and failure, I guess!? 😛 )
Thank you for this episode! We all struggle with failure all the time, but it’s still comforting to hear about how others manage it. I loved Ania’s point about how failure is not a waste of time. I’m 52 and a latecomer to focusing on art. Because of this, sometimes I place too much important on specific results, when I know very well that it’s a process that can’t be rushed. I also loved Edge’s point about taking care of yourself. Without your health, there IS nothing else. Our culture is addicted to being busy all the time, but sometimes to produce meaningful work you really need to step back and reflect and be present and not always rushing on to the next thing. There’s also a terribly destructive myth that artists need to be suffering to produce great art, and it’s just not true. Producing work and improving your skills can and will be painful sometimes, but being a perpetually “tortured artist” is no way to sustain a life.
Here are two quotes I love from a book I just read, “The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck” by Mark Manson (this book really resonated for me and I would recommend it!):
“Improvement at anything is based on thousands of tiny failures, and the magnitude of your success is based on how many times you’ve failed at something…
If you think about a young child trying to learn to walk, that child will fall down and hurt itself hundreds of times. But at no point does that child ever stop and think, ‘Oh, I guess walking just isn’t for me. I’m not good at it.’”
“At some point, most of us reach a place where we’re afraid to fail, where we instinctively avoid failure and stick only to what is placed in front of us or only what we’re already good at.
This confines us and stifles us. We can be truly successful only at something we’re willing to fail at. If we’re unwilling to fail, then we’re unwilling to succeed.”
The flip tip that resonated with me the most was Edge’s; I often see rest as failure, but understanding it as necessary regeneration is a much healthier, productive mindset to take. It was a lightbulb moment to hear that. This was a great ArtCast, guys. Maybe my favorite so far.
wow, really great podcast. a lot of what you chris and the others have said makes sense now. the story that resonated with me the most is the one about the guy taking the pills and almost committed suicide. mostly because that is where I am at now. for the past several years i been applying for art type jobs, but all of them have been meant with rejection, so thus it’s making me feel I’m not good enough and killing my artistic ambitions. almost to point of wanting to quit pursuing my art as a career. more so it feels like a need to quit for how much time already wasted with this and go find something as a job just to survive being an independent adult. anyway, this podcast was really helpful despite the negative stuff.
I love you guys.
Really needed to hear this artcast right now and especially feel like most artists need to hear this discussion on how they view their art. I wish I had heard it when I was 19 and just starting out my career in animation because I think I would have forged a healthier relationship with failure and saved a lot of pain over the years.
In my current place in my own evolution as an artist, I really needed to hear Maike’s thoughts about how to navigate outside critique and knowing what is actually useful to you and how to recognize when you WANT to move forward. I had a really awesome animation critique recently that was super honest and heartbreaking given how long I have been doing this as a job. In the past, I would take it as a motivating factor to get better but this time around I have just been beating myself up about it in a really unhealthy way but not really wanting to DO anything about it. (Just wallow and feel sorry for myself. a.k.a NOT HEALTHY.)
On the flip side, I’ve been failing at illustrating and with trying to get better at it for a year now.. and every time I get a critique, I don’t feel daunted. It just makes me want to get better and do things to work on getting to the next step. (Taking classes, keep working at it, etc.) So Maike’s example of the comic submission vs grad school and how she looked at the “failure” was really illuminating.
Also Sarah’s view of reinterpreting what “is difficult” and reconceptualize how to work on it through recasting how you view it = GREAT STUFF.
<3
Absolutely loved this! Great info and sadly, I found myself in a lot of the scenario’s that were presented. We all deal with doubts throughout our artistic journeys. It’s how we deal with those doubts and how we are cognizant of our thought processes enough to realize when we are becoming our own worst enemy, that we are able to learn, adapt, and overcome. I’m 48 and a retired Air Force veteran that decided to go to school to become better at my craft. It has been challenging and extremely rewarding! I was worried at first that my age would be a factor in employment after graduation, but so far I have met wonderful people and I look forward to pursuing my art even more after graduation. The highlight of my night tonight after listening to this, was sharing it on several of the school pages I am a part of and seeing one of my instructors talking about listening to the same podcast this morning! I hope that others who are older that feel like that they’re not up to par or feeling down about failures will find inspiration in your podcast! I sure did!
Thanks so much for sharing, Todd. One of the misconceptions I often encounter is that one can be “too old” to begin exploring their own artistic passion.
It’s even possible to completely change careers later in life (In fact, I just recorded an interview last night with a friend of mine who is a Parks Concept Artist. He didn’t even begin his current career until his late 30’s. …and he’s just one example.)
Stay strong. Stay close. …and please keep us posted on your progress!
(In this comment I have kind of embraced the failure of trying to keep it short haha)
HAPPY 10TH ANNIVERSARY! <3
Thank you so much for having the perseverance to keep this up for so long, I only learned about the ArtCast a few years ago, and I'm so, so happy and thankful that it's still around!
Also, thank all of you to talk about failure, that's so personal and it's really brave that you are sharing these thoughts and stories. Thank you so, so much!
At the end of the episode, Chris asks what aspect of failure mentioned resonate the most with us, but to be honest, they ALL resonate with me to some extent.
For the longest time I didn't do failure. And I'm not just talking about art. I ran a very tight ship, studied a lot, didn't go places without a lot of preparation, rarely had bad grades, didn't take a lot of risks (and had minor anxiety attacks when I did) etc etc. That's not to say that I didn't fail, but just that I did my very best to ensure that failure wasn't part of my system. I'd say that led to a very bland, neither-happy-nor-unhappy kind of life, and then resulted in some mental health issues (it makes sense that something like that had to happen, looking back) — and only in recent months, maybe up to a year, did I seriously rethink failure (partly due to the ArtCast, partly due to other podcasts and articles I kept stumbling upon, partly due to my therapist).
But it didn't really click in my brain until Chris basically opened the intro session of Brush to the Future with "we're here to faaiill!" (I still have his voice in my head xD) and I just embraced that. It helped that there were artists in attendance who are so much further along than me, and that there was no way I could be the best, or even one of the best (it sounds so arrogant when I type it out), which totally circumvented my perfectionism and need to control my environment.
And I started approaching art sort of like "the worst that could happen is that it's ugly, but I gave it my best shot in the time available, so I can be proud of myself". And now I'm generally approaching art similarly to what Ânia said: failing my way to success haha. It's not always easy to maneuver myself into this mindset, but when I manage it, it's really freeing. It suddenly doesn't matter so much that I made something that's not pretty or not yet how I want it to be. I have way less problems starting over and trying again. And I'm also much more willing to experiment or try out new things, apply for things (keeping failure close, like Maike said). It becomes fun and easy to try stuff if "trying" is the goal, and not the outcome.
In the wake of BTTF I'm also approaching art more like a detective would a case, or like solving a puzzle — breaking it down into pieces, and trying out one approach, and if it doesn't work sitting back and trying to find a different approach. And I really love Sarah's way of talking about finding smaller chunks or tasks if the whole thing is to overwhelming and re-contextualizing the whole thing that you can start with tools already at your disposal. That's so helpful.
What Edge said really resonated with me as well, you know, the "I'm not good enough if I'm not working until 3AM" mentality. Coming out of mental health issues that really drained most of my energy just for the existing part of life I now worry that I don't have what it takes to be a professional artist. I'm a bit afraid that I can't even put in the 40 hours a week on a consistent basis, let alone 50 or 60 hours other freelancers put in. But hearing Edge talk about it, really drove home that art isn't more important than our health. If you're not healthy you can't make art either. And what if it's true? What if I *can't* invest the same levels of energy as other people? That doesn't automatically mean I can't be successful. It's important to listen to my body and make sure I'm okay, and figure out what works for *me* and not listen so much to what the Artist On The Internet is doing. Really, thank you Edge for talking about this.
And last but not least, I think personally Chris' account resonated the most with me, simply because it, eh, made me tear up a little. I think I didn't just commit creative suicide for the long them but just generally emotional and mental suicide across the board. SO that was a bit tough to listen to, but so true and good at the same time.
So really, thank you so much all of you. Your actionable tips are really useful! It was a great and very deep episode! <3
Hey Chris,
Just gotta say thanks for this episode, especially the placebo story/artistic suicide part, that stopped me in my tracks a little.
I haven’t touched art in maybe 3 or 4 weeks now. I’ve been suffering with depression in my day to day for a fair old while now and it’s making it very difficult to motivate myself to the consistent daily art practice/enjoyment (when I did it was unfocused, not fun and felt meaningless). Hearing you describe this ‘downward spiral’ of failures and the self ascribed negative feelings it brings, so perfectly, has made me realize I’m really not alone in this (Which, ultimately, you always kind of know on an intellectual level in moments of clarity, but it’s hard to really believe it sometimes).
I am/was (as of listening today) really at the bottom of that spiral, being at the point where I wouldn’t even listen to an art podcast I love or watch a youtuber/streamer/talk to art friends because I was just feeling a crippling fear of coming back to the subject at all… even the thought of creative endeavour gives me an anxiety gut punch…fear of continuing to/failing even harder.
I realise it. I’m a complete self sabotager, I’ve completely warped and destroyed the whole point of art in my mind. I had given myself a mental deadline of when I needed to be at a certain level (I began art a few years back) and looking at it now, all this has done is paralyze me as I get closer to the date, with every single failure resonating harder and me feeling less than sure of what I even want to do anymore. It doesn’t help that I almost feel, as my eye has developed within these years, I fail more than I used to, I see more of what is wrong. I’m at the point that I was fully debating just stopping all together until this morning.
I really am going to try and pull myself out of this pit today, bearing in mind all of the tips. I may have to actually physically write out the internal conversation in my head and flip it on the page. Find the positive connotations and rewire this damn brain to think – Failure is a success, so fail correctly and you’re doing damn good.
Thanks again, man, congrats on the 10 years. I could waffle on forever – feels like I’ve got a relief valve open. Apologies for the long one.
Thanks also to Rich (above comment), that quote from Dune is a poignant reminder to me, both to embrace and plow through that anxiety, and also to re-read Dune. That’s some spicy literature right there.
Ta.
I really resonated with Chris’ flip-tip. The story it’s inspired by is heavy, but then again the lesson is worth its weight in gold.
I have definitely self-sabotaged myself a couple of times because I was afraid of failure: anything from not daring to apply, to procrastination. All because of negative thoughts, leading to avoidance.
Learning to have a more relaxed and natural relationship with failure has been a long road, but I feel like I’m finally kind-of there! Now, instead of fearing that I won’t live up to my own expectations on myself, I expect that I won’t. And that’s okay. Because usually what comes out of it is finished work and lessons learned. And that’s good enough!
Hi there
Long time listening, first time commenting.
First of all thanks for all the advice and knowledge shared in the ArtCast.
This particular episode was great and really hit the spot for me.
Separating failure from self worth is something I hope to keep in mind for the rest of my career.
Not long after I listed to this episode, I came across a quirky little TED talk that focuses particularly on creating something with the goal to fail and how that can help overcome the fear of doing things at all.
Here’s the link if you’re interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0bsKc4tiuY&t=2s
Keep up the amazing work
All the best