Storytelling guru Brian McDonald joins us for another mind-blowing interview.
In part one of this two-part interview, Brian discusses writing roadblocks, how theme creates character and why you have to send your characters to Hell…
Listen To The Interview:
More From Brian McDonald:
Subscribe to The Invisible Ink Blog
Other ‘Paper Wings’ Posts Featuring Brian McDonald:
Brian’s First Paper Wings Appearance
Animated ‘Guardians Of The Galaxy’ Links:
Join The Conversation:
What about this conversation resonated with you?
What are your goals and dreams and struggles and what can we cover in future episodes that will help you?
This is great! You got him on your show again. Can’t wait to listen to it 🙂
Can’t wait to hear your thoughts, Francis!
Thanks Chris!
Ever since I read Invisible Ink I’ve been trying to apply the secret process Brian described here: start with theme, and then develop plot and character from that theme. It’s much more helpful for me because it gives me direction and gives me an idea of how exactly to send my char to hell.
What I can suggest for all the wingers and listeners is to take a look at “Techniques of the Selling Writer” by Dwight V. Swain. He has there a technique called the Scene & Sequel, where at the end of every scene, a disaster occurs that thwarts the character from reaching his goal. It was a godsend when I read it cut it gave me an idea of how to apply personal hell in terms of beats or scenes.
Also suggest checking out K.M. Weiland’s blog and books. She has very good advice on storytelling as well 🙂
Thanks for making this interview happen, guys! Can’t wait for part 2 🙂
I started crying at “the library is the land where the dead speak” because it’s such a beautiful concept. Anyway.
So I started nodding along with a grin when Brian started talking about “the block of marble” because I thought that was exactly what I do. I definitely create my marble block, but it isn’t written down. I don’t write anything down until I feel I need it; I trust I’ll remember it if it’s important.
I’ve tried to root out the theme of my story for a couple years now, since I first read B. McD’s books, but everything I come up feels trite compared to the dark, nebulous feeling I have inside (maybe it’s a combination of themes?) and I really don’t know how to say what it is. Do you guys think it’s mandatory to be able to articulate the theme of your story?
Goals, dreams, and struggles! Okay, so I am currently redrafting my comic, feeling it needed a major overhaul to correct the mistakes from when I did it the first time. The story has not changed, but the way I’m tell it is, I hope, better and more mature. ^^; The dream is to get it updating and out in the world again, and me along with it!
My primary struggles continue to be time, energy, and loneliness; you may or may not recall that I am a mother of two fighting lyme disease. In fact, you probably won’t because the lyme disease, while I have had it for six years, was only recently diagnosed. I am doing better on all fronts because my children are now in school full-time, giving me more time, my symptoms have been diagnosed and I’ve been getting treatment, giving me more energy, and I started a weekly meet-up online with my closest comic friends, making me less lonely. 🙂
Can’t wait for the rest of the interview!
Hey, Naomi!
So glad you liked the episode!
In response to your question about theme, I’ll encourage you to reference Brian’s previous appearance on the podcast: http://chrisoatley.wpengine.com/brian-mcdonald/
Nothing is mandatory, IMO. But just like with visual art, there are best practices and disciplines that make the work better and/or easier on the creator. The theme is the conclusive life lesson of the story – a destination.
When I’m taking a road trip, I find I waste a lot less time and burn a lot less gas when I know where I’m going.
…and my passengers are a lot less likely to get bored, grumpy or worried.
Thanks for posting it!
I think the thing about the theme that is frustrating me is I have a good number of characters, and they each have their own character arcs and theme (and personal hells!), but I can’t figure out what would be the big T theme that is pulling them all together, other than the obvious that they are all participating in the events of the same story and acting on and reacting to one another.
Hello Naomi,
Don’t know if you saw, but I posted a comment down below as a reply to your comment.
– Brian
Hello Naomi,
I have found that articulating your theme is probably not as important as telling the story. The theme is what I use as my compass. If I feel like I am lost in my story, or if I don’t know where to go next, I look to my theme. This is the secret to writing. It’s not easy, but I feel like, for me at least, this is the answer.
As for your struggles, I think that all of us can relate. I would say, to the best of you abilities, embrace your struggles. For this is the factory of where your drama is built. Your stories will reflect who you are, so going inward and studying what it is that makes you who you are on a deeper level will only make you better at your craft.
Stay healthy, and good luck:D
-jus
Thank you! Mostly I hope I can become a success story and encourage others that life doesn’t end just because you get sick.
Naomi–
I hope something Brian said in this episode encourages you: he says we’ve all struggled with something—even if you’re only a baby, your trial is waiting for that (never-seeming-to-come) next bottle. Coming off a series of health problems that has interrupted my own work flow for over a year now, I think–I have to think– that we can take that struggle and put it into our work to make more authentic and empathetic stories. Bed rest and isolation SUCK. Depression and loneliness inevitably set in, no matter how much you try to fight it. But these are human, universal experiences. Can you take that pain and put it into what you’re writing? I’m sure you can.
I was recently talking about The Dreamer to an art student who needed to interview me for a school project. I told her I don’t think I could have written this story straight out of art school because I didn’t know yet just how hard and unfair life can be. When you suffer loss, you learn those things. Hopefully it makes us as authors empathetic and not bitter.
Just this summer my husband and I went through something hellish and unjust. I felt all sorts of horrible things I’d never felt before. One of the things that helped me was when I realized that rage was what this latest story (the one I mention in this episode) was lacking. I’m going to take that violation and work it into the rewrite. I think it was the heart and depth my protagonist was lacking– only because I hadn’t experienced myself yet. Hopefully it makes him more real and relatable than he was in my first (now tossed out) draft.
I hope your much healing comes your way soon! Good to see you on here.
Thank you, Lora! I am sorry to hear you had to deal with all of that but at the same time glad you found good uses for those experiences. It’s very true about the baby thing. I remember going through a bunch of old things when I was moving and finding a story I had written in middle school, and while it was cringingly derivative and immature, there was a scene in it that was very honestly about being excluded from the rest of the group and trying to understand why someone would do that to someone else unless they didn’t know how much it hurt. I guess that’s what they mean by “write what you know.'”
How weird! I remember writing much more about my process than I see here (ironic given what I said), but it seems to have vanished while the rest went through. It went something like this:
So I started nodding along with a grin when Brian started talking about “the block of marble” because I thought that was exactly what I do. But then as you guys continued onto how it’s such a waste to write all this stuff you’re just going to cut out, and I found myself still grinning and nodding, I had to pause and really think about what it is I do. I definitely create my marble block, but it isn’t written down, because I hate doing work I don’t need to do. I don’t write anything down until I feel I need it; I trust I’ll remember it if it’s important (unless it’s a name, in which case I have to write it down or else I’ll definitely forget it. I have scenes I’ve written down where one character will have one name in one and a different name in the other because I forgot they already had name!).Typically my scripts look like a string of emotionally charged scenes preceded by a sentence or two of what led up to this point, and so when I sit down to finish, I am stringing a bunch of big character moments and plot points together. I find a lot of the time that while I’m worrying so much about not dragging or not putting too much in, I’ve left a lot of key points or information OUT, and I didn’t notice because all that information is free-floating in my head! What’s why when I am asking for critiques, I desperately want to know “Do you SEE what I see? Do you HEAR what I hear? Did I manage to get it out?” I’m wondering how many other Wingers work like this!
Hey, Naomi, I think I understand how you feel. The marble block is definitely in my head rather than on paper, but I’ve discovered that I eventually forget a lot even if it’s like the “there’s no way I’ll ever forget this” type of thing. And in a way, that’s good. Because a lot of it may be that part of the marble block that needs to be chopped off in order to reveal the sculpture inside. But then I started to write ideas down and I’ve found that’s good too. Just like with drawing/painting , you can leave it for a while, and when you return to it later on you can tell what’s missing or needs to be added or corrected. In other words, you can judge it a bit more like an outsider. In the end though, even with the most careful planning, we still need other people opinion to see if we’ve sent the message properly. That’s because no matter what, we can’t pretend we don’t know our own marble block, whether it’s only in our heads or noted down somewhere.
And about nailing the theme. You’re not alone :). It may seem difficult, but at the same time it may be easier than you thought. You already have themes for each character, so you only need to find a common ground for those themes, like a grand category to which all of them belong. When I tried finding the theme in my story I was a bit confused at first, not sure where to start. Brainstorming helped. I kept in mind the fact that the theme is not just a word, so I ended up with a bunch of long sentences that were more or less saying the same thing. In the end I realized that all this was about the message I wanted to send. And that in fact the message was there all along and I just didn’t recognize it at first. Look back on your comic and how it all began and ask yourself what was it that you wanted to say when you started writing it? What meaning did you want it to have for others? Did you want to show them something? Remind them of something? Warn them? In my case, it was a warning. Remember what Brian McDonald says in Golden Theme, that through our stories, we’ve all just been trying to use our experience in order to help and teach others about something, even if we’re doing it intuitively. So what is it that you’re trying to teach others? Look at the theme like that and you might find it easier. I don’t think it’s absolutely necessary to have an exact wording, but it helps to know it’s core. Keep at it and you’ll find it eventually! Good luck 🙂
I’ll go ahead and use this opportunity to thank the PaperWings leaders for the awesome podcast and for recommending Jedi Master Brian McDonald books so many times. Eventually I listened and went and bought the books (wish I did it sooner heheh). They were amazingly eye opening, and I felt like Golden Theme was teaching me, beyond all, how to be a better person. And of course I thank Master Brian from the bottom of my heart, for taking the time to share his wisdom with us, in the podcast as well as in his books.
The ‘download the mp3’ link doesn’t work 🙁
Woops! Sorry about that, Ralf! Fixed now!
😀 That will make my workday easier tomorrow. Thanks for the lightspeed respond and fix.
A rather timely subject as I was just working on writing a blogpost about my love for Disney’s “Art of” coffee table books about their animated features as its a chance to learn how a theme starts as the seed of an idea and grows to have so many different aspects that harken back to that original theme. Its a great storytelling resource.
I’ll be curious if Brian or yourself have similar thoughts.
Oh yeah. That’s awesome, Erik.
Yes – I talk with my students all the time about how the Visual Development process and Story process are the same thing and should be treated as such.
We are working on a course that explores this idea. Would be great to release it in 2015. Not sure when it’ll be ready though…
OMIGOSH I DID THE WRITING THE WAY BRIAN DOES HIS WRITING. Theme first. Characters and Plot second.
Sorry, all caps. I just feel better about my story now. This was GREAT. Fantastic. I’m going to listen to it again tonight. Did you notice that Brian mentioned both Medusa AND David and Goliath in this cast? Seriously? What the heeeck.
I want to say so much right now, but I can’t put the words together. Like, how do you write a story and find a group of people that would be interested in it and geek out as much as you do over it? I guess that’s the big question. That’s what everyone wants to know and do.
So. Good. SO good. Thanks for the awesome inspiration, Chris and Wingleaders. Gah, I’m gonna be excited for the rest of the day now.
Haha, Britny!
I knew you would love this episode. I thought about what your reaction would be to it while I was helping to edit it.
Yes, I was tempted to try and show off a bit when he brought up Medusa and D&G but I managed to resist.
As for your story question – I think when you build a story on a deeply honest theme, it will resonate with audiences in expected and surprising ways.
Hey Britny,
Thanks for the kind words, and your excitement is inspiring!
Writing that resonates with an audience is the beautiful struggle all of us as artists have ben dealing with for thousands of years. Chris is right, create your worlds from a place of the utmost honesty, and you will find that you have much more in common with those that are around you than you’d ever thought before.
Good luck with your comic!
You guys answered that so eloquently, I can’t even. Just the deep, honest, truth of it all. A resonating story is so hard, but so worth it. Justin, I’m going to need a lot of luck. And ink. Invisible Ink.
bahaha.
Chris, I’m glad you held back from the temptation. I felt so smart when I made that connection. Can’t wait for part 2.
Awesome Awesome Awesome! podcast… I’m gonna have to re-listen at least a few time to get all of that.
Haha. Me too, Jose. I’ve listened to it like 5 times and I’m still hearing entirely new things…
Haha Jose,
I feel the same way. I feel kind of lost in a story at the moment, and could really use some B MacD wisdom!
I just want to say how much I adore these interviews with Brian McDonald. After listening to the previous one I picked up Invisible Ink, and it has been an absolute inspiration.
As an author and illustrator of children’s picture books I’m constantly thinking about story structure and theme. Nothing has been a bigger help to my writing than reading and listening to other creators talk about their own approach. I can’t say thank you enough for sharing interviews like this.
So thanks,
Jacob
Thank you, Jacob. Brian is one of the smartest people I’ve ever met. He’s also one of the best communicators I’ve ever met. We are inexplicably fortunate to call him our friend.
Please keep us posted on your children’s book projects…
I think Brian needs to be the Fourth Wing Leader.
Until then, I’m happy with his role as Jedi Master.
Theme for a children’s book is of the utmost importance! Teaching them the lesson of the book, I have to imagine, is the main goal. It’s great to hear that it’s what you focus on. I’m so glad that you enjoyed the podcast, that dude is a well of information, but what I love the most is how simple he makes everything sound. It doesn’t feel impossible.
Good luck with your books bud!
Most children’s books are so clear on theme! I think that when I read a lot of “grown up” fiction, theme is far less clear. We get muddy in our cleverness.
Maybe I’ll try to write my next book as a children’s book first, then develop it from there. I think it’s why Ender’s Game is so fantastic–it was originally a short story– and why the sequels are a hot, meandering mess.
Chris, thanks so much for opening my eyes to the work of Brian McDonald. Invisible Ink is hands-down my favourite book on story writing and structure, a literal textbook for how I aim to approach storytelling. I would have never found my voice in my latest story project if not for your podcast and his book.
Listening to this episode got me excited, because much of what he touched on I feel like I’m applying to my story right now, built from the ground-up on theme, then character then plot, sending the hero to hell, setting up an insurmountable obstacle – hope I’ve learned something! I look forward to sharing my work with you both when it’s finally done.
Cheers,
Adam
SO EXCITING!
Adam, please keep us posted on your progress!!!
I’m really proud to hear everyone saying how they’ve been working on Theme and Invisible Ink since our last interview with Brian–I know that I have!
This was a great “200 level” follow up to our previous 101 episode.
I’m going to have to try that “theme first” approach because that actually makes so much logical sense to me!
But yeah, the part where he was talking about how characters don’t have to be DOING all the time reminded me of a Miyazaki interview where he talked about putting “breathing space” into his films, where the characters are just sitting or feeling or you’re taking in the ambience of the environment and the moment. I thought it was kind of cool–like including “white space” in a visual medium.
I spent a LONG time reconsidering/ reworking my theme before it really clicked. But when it finally happened, all of the problems (and there were LOTS) became smaller, clearer and at least half-solved.
On the note of “breathing space” – I heard Claire Keane talked about this just recently. She talked about the film “Lost In Translation” and how it has so many amazing “small” moments where we just spent time “in private” with the characters and nothing much was happening. …and the result wasn’t just interesting, it was POWERFUL.
I loved that interview with Miyazaki! Like the moment he mentions in Spirited Away (different interview I think) where Sen taps her shoes to make sure they’re on tight. I always go back to that when I feel guilty for adding in an extra panel that seems insignificant but adds a quiet depth to the moment or overall story.
Do you ever have trouble balancing these little moments with slowing down the pace too much?
I like how Brian emphasized both plot and character. A lot of independent films have no plot. And when I get to the end nothing much has happened. Everything is SO understated that the theme becomes diluted. Flip side most every action movie: tons of stuff happens but I don’t care about it because I don’t care about the characters.
Having a writing partner or editor who has strengths in the opposite of your own personal bent can be really good. If nothing is happening, they’ll tell you! Or, if your characters are bland and interchangeable, no amount of explosions in the world will make your audience care.
Sometimes it’s faster and easier to ‘phone a friend’ on this. On our own we tend to nit pick tiny things that don’t really need fixing and are blind to the glaring problems in front of us.
I am very excited for CTN this year. It’s going to be so much fun seeing everyone in the OA again! 🙂
This podcast was a great refresher and overall fascinating discussion. (Of course that’s expected when it’s Brian – always a brain exploding experience) I am on the edge of my seat with anticipation of part two! I read Golden Theme (I enthusiastically recommend it and look forward to reading more of Brian’s books) before starting my first draft of OniSan and now that I’m starting my second draft it’s really making me think about what I should cut and what I can add or move around to keep my theme the main point. Lots to do before things start rolling!!
I agree with Naomi, “the library is the land where the dead speak” was a powerful visual that knocked that concept home for me. Brilliant.
I am with you on the first 10 pages – but not in writing. I have the first 10 pages of several graphic novel projects – and I always have gone back trying to tweak things for clarity and detail and because my skill level has improved already and end up with only those 10 pages. I’m finding more “pre-production” (Like nailing down a style guide so I’m not puzzling about how to make backgrounds match my characters as I’m going along or even just designing a few props ahead of time – for whatever reason my brain didn’t connect vis dev to graphic novels until the last couple years, they were always separate adventures) cutting down on my excuses for making those tweaks/not moving on. I’ve never really had that same issue with writing…I wonder why that is.
My goals, dreams and struggles…
There’s been a lot churning around in my head over the last few months. I feel that my issues still revolve around the long term – primarily how to get out of here and then how to stay moving upwards. How to go about making my own opportunities since none are really opening for me where I’m at and possibly even where I’m headed. That’s why the Patreon episode is one I reference a lot lately. I definitely feel like I’m close to something, but it’s just starting to become less vague. That’s both frustrating and exciting. I worry that I’m forgetting things, some that I don’t even know I’m forgetting, that I’m not doing things in an order that will make things go smoothest. Like if I should focus on building my email list and newsletter content before or at the same time as setting up a Patreon. But I suppose that’s the point of learning and experimenting. Whenever you’re ready for a class on the art business end of things…I will be first to apply. 😉
That class might be closer than you think, Beki.
Yeah, seriously, you seem to have it put together pretty good lady. You know what you don’t know. I agree with you, make your own path:]
I’m with you on the pre-production idea for comics. In fact I wrote a whole blog series about it! I’m no pro, but after doing the first chapter of my comic and finding the insight of the PaperWings podcast/gaining artistic skill, I started over and did several months of pre-production. So far I am Much more satisfied and I don’t feel the immediate need to go back and rework because I’m getting a solid start!
I also have a Patreon that I alter as the project evolves (so I’m not pushing it too much yet) 🙂
Hey Chris,
Great interview with Brian! His analysis of T2 & aliens was really interesting, and how he approaches story from theme. I’m a background designer, so I tend to have a kinda of backwards approach to story. I try to tell most the story through the background, so even without the characters you get a sense for who’s space this is, who created it, why, ect…. and then how the characters react when forced to enter the environment seems pretty natural to who they are.
That’s fascinating, Pat. We need to get you and Barry McWilliams on an ArtCast sometime soon.
Thanks!
That sounds awesome.
Looking forward to stopping by at CTN. Sounds like I’ll be helping at the disneyTV booth to some extent this year!
That’s a great perspective, Pat! I had a great discussion with a bunch of guys at ProWeekend a couple of weeks ago – “How do you build backgrounds into a story?” was the big question. I think we all concluded that backgrounds are more vital to story than it seems to get credit for. I’d love to hear more about what you do and more about your thoughts on environment design!
Thanks Britny,
Ya I think BG people tend to be a different breed. We get really excited about architecture, reference, lighting & how characters leave their imprint on an environment. Like hearing about Lora Innes doing the ‘Dreamer’, & hearing that she actually when to Boston for reference was amazing.
Aww, well thank you.
ha ha, I go all over the place for research when I can. I love it. Just being in a place changes your perspective of it—no matter how many maps, photos or paintings of Boston I look at, none of them really let me know what it’s like to /be/ there. It didn’t matter how much I had read about the battle of Antietam or looked at maps, when I was at the battlefield it looked nothing like I had imagined.
I think environments are a very neglected part of storytelling. We often get so focused on character and plot we forget where it’s happening. I always like to say, when you’re at Hogwarts, you KNOW you’re at Hogwarts. And you can tell at a glance if you’re in Middle Earth or Narnia. And though they both take place in space, you can’t take a ship or an alien out of the Star Wars universe and put it into the Star Trek verse.
I always tell people that putting that kind of personalities into the world you are creating is what will take your story to the next level. Because you’re creating an escape through storytelling, but where are you sending people if it is not here? Juno didn’t even take place in the real world. That’s what is magical about that film and why it stands out in our memories.
Yup totally agree! I also try and think about what the character (or viewer) should be feeling in the environment & incorporate that into the design. It’s also fun when traveling or researching, to try and pinpoint what makes a location unique. How might a street shot in manhattan vs Chicago or LA be different. They are all big cities, but if you can pull out the small clues and exaggerate those, you can get some cool results.
I love this suggestion. I’m totally going to start doing this…!
One of the things I remember about Boston that I never got from photos are the hills. The streets aren’t flat there.
Oh dude, I love BG design to, and for that very reason! The BG is the character! You will go far with this thinking sir:] Glad that you enjoyed the podcast!
That is to say, you will go FURTHER!! Holy cow, your work is AMAZING DUDE!! 😀
Thanks Justin,
That means a lot coming from you. I only wish I could share my WB & Disney stuff too.
We should grab lunch sometime. Do you live here in town? Shoot me an email:]
This is my first time listening to paper wings. I really enjoyed listening to Brian’s advise and can’t wait for part two. His analogies are sooo good.
Yeah, he’s amazing, Joe. And welcome to Paper Wings! So glad you liked it!!!
Great episode. Don’t agree with the Indiana Jones personal hell rat scene being weaker-the purpose of that scene is not to use ‘personal hell’ to scare the audience but to cement Indy and his father as being akin to one another-The rats are Henry Jones Seniors snakes-it illustrates that Indiana and his father have this type of fear (fear of a specific animal ) in common. Personal hell is not always vital in making a scene more disturbing. Most people would agree that the insect corridor in ‘Temple of Doom’ is far more disturbing than the snake scene in ‘Ark’-despite Indiana’s lack of concern. Just my opinion of course-very interesting subject-thanks for making the podcast 🙂
Hi, Pete.
Brian’s point wasn’t that rats or bugs aren’t disturbing. Those two things are disturbing to a lot of people. The point is that the rats and the bugs aren’t disturbing to Indiana Jones.
I think the resounding sentiment about all of the Indy films is that Raiders is by far the strongest story. There’s a reason for that.
No story is going to be improved by adding things that are just generally disturbing to audiences. They’ll just become more disturbing for no reason.
…I think you’re right about the storytellers’ purpose for the rats.
But the overall story of that film is unfocused. The rat issue is just one symptom of a much bigger systemic problem. …come to think of it, that film has a larger tonal problem as well. But that’s a long rant for another time.
So glad you liked the episode.
I think the rat scene is less intense as a viewer simply because Indy isn’t afraid. When he’s afraid, we’re even more afraid—because nothing seems to rattle him.
In Temple of Doom it is very clear that bugs are Willie’s personal hell. Indy isn’t afraid, but she sure is heck is. And that’s why I think that scene is more powerful than the rat one, as well.
Hello Pete,
Don’t know if you saw, but I posted a comment down below as a reply to your comment.
— Brian
That blew me away! Where do I start to describe what I feel? I’ve got to say that with the current book I am kickstarting, I couldn’t have done it without Brian’s books. They were my go-to resource every step away. They helped me solve so many story problems and sparked entertaining solutions. I discovered my theme in the idea stage, then I relied on that armature every step of the way, until completion. It wasn’t an easy journey, but it was amazing. I don’t know if there is anything I’d rather do than craft meaningful, animated stories!
Now I just wish somebody else could do the Kickstarter and I could get back to developing my next story. I’m fortunate to have a friend who is the brains behind the marketing/business side, but I still feel like I’m in the land of the dead, haha. For the longest time I’ve felt like artists could succeed without studios, but now I wonder. Is the business side worth it? I seems like it has been for all four of you. Sorry if I sound negative, but this is an honest struggle.
I can also now see why some film directors don’t read the critical reviews. My business friend has been asking anyone and everyone to “Be mean and brutal in their critique our projects. Their feedback has been half positive and the other half, the negative comments, have been diverse and difficult to sort through. As of now, I’ve decided that I do need to listen (critically), but I also need to “listen to my heart” as Brian mentioned.
The stories that keep coming back to my mind during this time are of Walt Disney when critics didn’t think Snow White would ever amount to much – and the same situation happened to George Lucas with Star Wars. I wish I knew how they believed in their project to the end and at the same time stayed objective and open to feedback. That’s a balance I’d love to master.
Scott, the DIY route isn’t for some people. …but you know as well as I do that the studio life is just as difficult, frustrating and mercurial. I’m convinced that if finding happiness and fulfillment in the work you get paid for is a priority, you have to first choose what you know in your heart is right.
That said, the business side does get easier. …and starting in 2015, we’re going to be helping more with that aspect. So, please send us any specific questions you have so we can respond specifically.
I can’t wait to read your book cover-to-cover. Keep us posted on the when the Kickstarter launches and we’ll be sure to share it. You’ve been a strong support to us for years now so that’s the absolute least we could do. I would also like to figure out a way we can kind of tell the story behind the story…
Stay strong.
You’re amazing.
Your words are spot on, Chris! I will stay strong. I’m launching Tuesday the 11th at 10:00. I’m let you know right away! I’m glad to hear the business side gets easier. Good point about studio life. I keep meeting people who want to get out of the big studios and do what I’ve been doing.
Hey, Scott! I don’t know if it’s the best solution, but I’ve taken a ‘know-thyself’ approach to reviews and critiques.
I’m sensitive. I just am. Some people thrive under the open ‘say anything’ approach to online critique. I whither under it and die. It fills me with self-doubt and I can’t write or draw anything without wondering if I’m a hack.
I don’t avoid critique, but I only actively invite it through specific channels that I trust.
Is the critique that you’re receiving actually helping you or hurting you? That’s a great place to start as to knowing whether that’s a good fit for you in the future. If you’re hearing things and finding it’s making you a better artist, then by all means continue. But it sounds like you’re a little like me and this particular avenue for critique might be confusing you and sending you into doubt and uncertainty.
I’ve found that to be my #1 enemy when it comes to being creative. If that’s the case, cut it out! If your co-creator insists on that sort of feedback because it truly is helpful and inspirational to him, have him sift through it. When common critiques and suggestions rise to the surface, have him tell you what they are, in his words, which I’m sure, if he’s your partner, will be instructive and encouraging.
It sounds like your Kickstarter and my Patreon will launch about the same time. We can cheer each other on.
Thank you, Lora. Seriously, I couldn’t stop smile after reading this. I generally beg people for critiques, but this new experience has definitely been a bit poisonous for me. I love your advice – that will help in the future.
We should definitely cheer each other on. I can’t wait to see how your Patreon does!
Hey Scott,
I’m so glad that you enjoyed the podcast. I love it when one comes along right when I need it! I totally agree with Lora. Be careful when it comes to critiques. Everyone on Earth now believes that because someone can hear them, that they are wise. It’s best at the beginning of your career to seek out critiques from those whom you can trust. Folks who will keep it real with you, but at the same time will see through to the real meat of the story and give you good feedback. Having talked to you on several occasions, you are a real level headed dude. But no one can withstand abuse to their craft for too long. It’ll kill you!
As for the business, I also feel you there pal. It’s not something that I’d thought I’d enjoy either. Chris has been an inspiration to me in that area, and his business sense is amazing! Seek out someone who can make it make sense to you, and find the things that you enjoy about it. That way it won’t suck for you the entire time. I’ve also taken to watching “The Profit” on CNBC. The host, a businessman named Marcus Lemonis believes that there are 3 key areas to a business: People, Product, and Process. The most important thing to him (I believe that this is also his favorite) is the people aspect. He believes that if you deal with people correctly, then they will return to your business for life. I can keep going for hours, so I’ll leave you with that. I encourage you to look into this guy more:]
Good luck with your book, I look forward to reading it! You already won by completing a project, something that most of the “brutally honest” folks will never do btw;]
-Jus
Marcus Lemonis sounds live he’ll jive with my style. I’ll look him up. Thanks so much for your encouragement, Justin. I admire you and think you make a great addition to the podcast. See you at CTNX!
This is the exact conundrum I’m in right now – whether or not an artist (specifically me, since I know it is possible for others) can survive without a studio. I don’t have the studio experience yet, so I still feel like that is something I want. But I also don’t want to work in a gray cube for too much longer.
I’m not worried about logistics of doing my own thing – I’m fairly organized, so once I learn them (Yay for a possible class!!) I’m confident I can make things run smoothly and maximize my creating time. It’s just a matter of having the time and energy (while I still have a day job) to start making things happen. And the money to live on once I don’t have that day job.
I’m also mildly worried about my social skills. At home I crave face-to-face time with like-minded people and it’s just not the same online. The longer I spend away from people like that the less I want to – and the worse my anxiety gets. :/ At work I need my own space so I can focus. Balancing act.
Either way – studio or solo – I know we’ll both make it work. 🙂
For sure, Beki! I feel very much the same. I don’t think I want to leave my day job. Even if I’m working on big projects like these, I’ve told them I would stick around and consult and it has been a happy arrangement. If I need some space, I let them know when I’ll complete their request, get to a stopping point in my process, and then I address their needs.
I don’t think your social skills are a problem. I think that’s natural. I don’t have many like-minded people around either, so I end up running my ideas past a bunch of people, which mostly satisfies that need.
I agree – studio or solo – we WILL make it work!
So, so so happy the Paper Wings Podcast team is assembled again! Love listening to your inspirational podcasts and often go back to the old episodes to become re-inspired. Looking forward to hearing more from you guys! 😀
Thanks, Jesse! That’s so encouraging to hear!
Nice animation work!
Yeah, that makes a brotha feel good! Thank you:]
Can’t wait to listen, I’m super-excited! Reading Invisible Ink after you previously recommended it on the show really changed my life and just recently I bought The Golden Theme and Ink Spots too. Brian is simply amazing.
Awesome, Olof! Golden Theme is by far my favorite but Invisible Ink is GREAT and also the logical starting point. Ink Spots is great too. It’s jam-packed with bite-sized insights. Yep. Brian is the BEST.
Great episode. I can’t think of any easier way to write than from the theme down. I’m using a combination of the techniques described, starting from the theme and outlining all the appropriate scenes that need to be there, then filling in the details as I go. I also used the “Hollywood Formula” that you guys have talked about, and writing my story out this way has really made it easy to get over the humps. Since the least time I commented, I’ve laid out the whole story, written detailed scenes for the prologue and Act I, and penciled and inked the first nine pages – with a colorist on board. I’ve been exploring the social networking aspects as I develop material, and will certainly be checking out Patreon soon. As I have said here before, your podcast has been a continuous source of inspiration and information that helps keep me determined to finish. Thanks!
Awesome, Mike!
Yes, please keep us posted on all of this. Can’t wait to hear the next progress report.
I’m planning on a bigger web presence for this project soon. Once I get a larger backlog of material and do some more concept work from the main body of the story -where the SF action fun happens – I’ll be sure to let you know. Thanks again.
We plan to keep you guys updated about my own Patreon launch. If I run into any hiccups, or find certain things work better than others, I’ll let you know.
Thanks, Lora. Any advice on tools for use by independent creators is great, and it will be interesting to hear about your experiences with Patreon.
Awesome podcast! I really loved what Brian said about knowing the principals of good storytelling vs. actually being able to execute them. I really struggle with that, both in writing and visually.
The difference between starting with a theme and discovering a theme was also interesting. I have to confess, there have been several projects I’ve had to spend some time searching for the theme after I had the story idea, but maybe one day, I’ll be better at recognizing my themes earlier on. In fact, I imagine that all of the cool ideas we come up with already have a theme connected to them; that’s why they’re so appealing to us. We just need to be better at seeing what’s hidden under the exterior premise or character design.
One thing I would love to know more about is plotting out the process of a character’s transformation, step by step. I understand the idea of putting your characters in situations where they need to confront and overcome their flaws, but how do you pace that in a way that makes sense? What are some of the little steps they need to take along their journey?
Eagerly awaiting part two of this interview!!
Bethany, have you read Save the Cat? It’s a much more formulaic approach to storytelling, but a lot of the same principles overlap. Even if you don’t use Blake Snyder’s exact formula, understanding why it works is a great starting point to figuring out pacing and what character changes need to happen where in your story.
I agree that knowing is different than being able to execute! I’m struggling through this as well, as evidenced by my question to Brian on the show. But I think the more we wrestle with it, the more we’ll build up our storytelling muscles for the next project.
I have not read Save the Cat, but it’s been on my To Read list for awhile. In fact, I think I’ll go order it now!
Thanks!
Great podcast as always! I was just re-listening to a PW Podcast on Monday wondering when you guys would be back!
I’ve tried writing theme first. I really have. And it would be much more efficient if I did. But whenever I try, I end up with really shallow characters who just exist to drive the theme along and everything is very wooden.
My current process is more like an interesting scene > interesting characters > more scenes > finally find a theme based on getting to know my characters > start actually writing the story based on theme and characters. Rather inefficient!
You guys keep inspiring me to stop letting fear analyze everything to death and just start doing. Preventing the shift from writing feelings to hacking the story apart with analysis because it might not be “good enough” isn’t easy! Any thoughts on how to combat that tendency?
I struggle with the same thing, Abrian. …over-analyzing my story because I’m afraid it won’t be good enough.
Lora’s advice on this issue is the best I’ve ever heard – Write a bunch of shorter, more self-contained stories that aren’t your main, big idea that you’re deeply invested in… Gain experience with those smaller projects and you’ll have an easier time finishing the big ones.
I cannot tell you guys how many times I have listened to the the first PW interview with Brian. There was one period when I’d play the podcast for me to sleep, hoping all that amazing knowledge would just sink into my brain!! Is that too weird? Now that I said it it kinda feels really weird haha!
Mind blown all over again! I have to admit that you guys are really a huge cornerstone into my creative life as an artist and as a person in general and I cannot thank you all enough! I feel super blessed to have found such passionate people!
Okay, sappy time over, haha! I am SO pumped up to start drawing and writing again! I am finally working part time at my job, so now I have the time to start drawing and writing my webcomic again! My struggle now is to keep motivated to do it everyday!
My problem is that I work on coordinating production at a busy dubbing studio. So even by working part time, that kind of job can eat all your creative and emotional juices in just a few hours. By the time I’m home, I just want to lay on the floor and sleep from how burned out I get. I’m slowly discovering my hows and whens on how my brain works, so that I can get an active routine to work on my stuff. It’s super hard when you’re being pulled from all sides all the time (social media, my job and just life itself).
But I’m trying to hang in there! Also, I made this wallpaper so I can look at it everyday, in case anyone wants it too:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/68205541/FOCUS-MESSAGE.jpg
Anyway, thank you guys again for all your hard work to inspire us!
Thank you, Elly, for the kind words. We LOVE sappy time so don’t worry about that. Encouragement like that keeps us going.
The emotionally draining day job is a tough one. Are you able to move your schedule around at all? Can you carve out your morning hours for creative work and go into your day job later? Or can you take a long lunch and stay later? Or how about a work-from-home arrangement where you can save on commute time?
I am able to move my schedule around, but only to a certain point, unfortunately. I started working on the afternoons at the beginning of this year. I worked on the Magic Box course on the morning, then I went to work. It worked out great for the first week, but then I had to change my time around because morning time is the time to solve all production problems from the previous day. So yeah, didn’t last long haha!
Then I was full time again for the last 4 months because we were just overloaded with work. So my time pretty much works around the studio time, since I was responsible for many things there. Now that the busy season is calming down, we hired more people and I’m able to delegate a lot of my work.
I can identify with your journey a lot, Chris. Because even though my job is a lot of work, I REALLY LOVE the people and the work itself. I’ve learned and grown so much there, but I’m at that point in life where I know that my future and passion is just not there anymore. I’m pretty sure that it is connecting with people and telling stories. So I’m at war with myself all the time, because I feel super blessed to be in such an amazing job, yet it’s not where I really want to be. So doubts and fear clouds my mind all the time. And then I listen to your podcasts and it all becomes crystal clear again. And that’s why I’m SO thankful to you, Lora and Justin!
BUT, I still can’t leave my job… And I still have a comic to make. So horray to struggle!
First, Elly, I love that wallpaper!!
I think that doing a webcomic is a fantastic way to stay disciplined. Starting a 100 page graphic novel can feel overwhelming and like the end is so far off. But when you do it a page at a time, it’s much more manageable. Posting it online as a webcomic really helps you stay motivated because you have a deadline and an audience. Those things have really helped me stay on point!
You can make it an easy deadline–a page every other week, a page a month, whatever! But it really helps you sit down and work when you’re tired and unmotivated. And then when you start making progress, you gain momentum, and then it gets easier and easier to get working. Getting started is the hardest part!
Good luck! We’re here to cheer you on.
Thank you so much Lora! When we break it down like that, the dream really turns into concrete and doable goals! Thank you so much for the encouraging words. You guys are so awesome!!
Talk about a timely podcast. I’m just starting a big project to improve my visual story telling. (Its going to sort of like The arrival by Shaun Tan mixed with the animatrix, all art an no text) I was really struggling with the story. The visual concepts for the characters, environments and themes are coming really easily. On the other hand the story just wouldn’t coalesce. So I’ve spent the last few weeks working on other things because I had no idea what to do.
After listening to the podcast I have a really clear direction. I was definitely getting wrapped up in the big picture and loosing the stories in the process. All that I need to do now is pick the characters to send to hell and things should start moving again lol.
Haha! Awesome.
Keep us posted, Nick!!!
The key to creativity is fluid intelligence and Brian McDonald overflows with it. All of you do.
Thank you, Patrick. Your encouragement means more to us than we can explain.
Bravo guys, really well done! All 4 of you made this podcast extremely entertaining and informative.
I’m a narrative painter, not a writer, but I found this discourse to be fascinating. Everything Brian said made way too much sense, and I can certainly apply these principles to my own work.
I could listen to professional artists break down the nuances of a great story while relating them to classic hollywood movies all day long. Brian sounds like a fantastic professor.
Thanks for all your hard work!!
Thanks, Tim!
We would love to hear about the discoveries you make while applying these concepts to your paintings…
And I never get tired of this kind of conversation either. It’s infinitely engaging to me.
Wow that was a loaded episode, I will have to relisten! I love the idea of understanding your process, and once you do you can build around it. I have just learnt that my mind naturally likes working with flat values the best, and if I apply this too colour and then add lighting last, I can build my image quicker. Who knew!
Can not wait for CTN this year!
Haha. I know what you mean, Tegan! I listened to it about five times during editing and still didn’t catch it all….
It’s interesting to hear you say that about value and color. I’d like to know more about that…
CTN-X WOOHOO!!!
book it in, colour & value process chat at CTNx it is!
I’m excited to go back to CTNx this year! It’ll be good to see you and everyone else.
Lora I fly out in 4 days, so excited now!
Amazing stuff, I was really excited to see you guys were doing another talk with Brian McDonald. 🙂
The part that resonated with me was the whole “first ten pages” bit. Years ago I started a graphic novel and kept revising and tweaking those first few pages. A lot of it was because by the time I had gotten far enough down the line, my newest pages put my first pages to shame and everything looked so inconsistent. And of course, I never finished and left a bunch of people hanging.
Now I realize that those changes in style or skill are just inevitable over the lifespan of a long form comic.
And recognizing the endless cycle of revising those first ten pages relates to where I find myself as an artist today. I realized my job was unfulfilling, so I left; I realized my current comic isn’t going to wow anyone if I don’t, you know, create it, so I took the leap and started working on it seriously. I’ve struggled with a lot of reservations, like what if my story is boring, or people just don’t care… but I know I didn’t want to end up like so many who never started in fear of failure. So I guess the driving force for me as an artist these days is to not let opportunities pass by, or bad things continue to negatively impact me, just out of fear or not wanting to leave a comfort zone.
Yeah. The familiar often feels more safe, even if the familiar is hurting us. It’s hard to take the leap of faith, but I’ve never taken a leap of faith and regretted it. I just try to be smart about the timing. I get a lot of advice and perspective from people smarter than me and then go for it…
The problem with the “first 10 pages” is that even if we get them where we think they are perfect, by the time we’re done with our script, graphic novel, whatever, we’ll look back and see things we would have done differently.
I think that is inevitable! I am all about starting strong, and having a beginning that sets up your ending in a satisfying way. But we also have to be willing to accept our imperfection as creators or we’ll never write or draw anything. (Or if we do, we’ll never share it.)
If I could, I’d completely redraw my first two graphic novels, but who has time for that? And I know fully that once my fourth one is finished I’ll feel that way about #3 so why even bother.
Even though you will inevitably grow as an artist through your graphic novel, it doesn’t mean that what you have to offer today isn’t valuable.
Good luck starting!
This podcast was super informative but also so frustrating for me, because I’m realizing how hard I’ve made things on myself by writing totally backwards. More important though is how I’ve been disregarding story elements that made me feel something because someone randomly mentioned how they’re tired of seeing “X.” I keep thinking everyone else must know more than I do, because I’m new at writing.
I know what you mean, Audrey. I’ve had a similar experience. But it did get better… And now that I’ve really crystallized my theme, things are clicking together relatively quickly. …and I’m not even sitting down to actually write yet. I’m still focused on finishing Magic Box. Things are just clicking together in my mind when I think about my story. …which gives me a lot of faith for when I actually have time to be intentional about finishing the script. Hoping for early 2015.
Good luck, Chris! : D And thanks!
Don’t write to other people’s tastes! Who are they anyway? If they feel that way about your subject/theme/characters/plot they probably aren’t your ideal audience. So don’t chase them… chase the people who do care about what you’re writing about.
When Brian told me to not lose sight of my original inspiration in my script it was like he gave me permission to believe in myself. What a load off that was. It hit me all over again when I re-listened to this episode yesterday.
Sometimes we just need someone to tell us it’s okay to believe in ourselves. If we truly have something genuine to say, it won’t resonate with everyone. Just learn to embrace that! And to embrace the fans you do have. ‘Haters gonna hate’ and what not…
Thanks so much for that response. I really DID need someone to tell me I can believe in myself! It’s strangely hard to make some things that I know won’t suit the taste of people I like, but you’re totally right that I need to write to my own tastes. I’ve been able to think more clearly about my story again, and happily enough, I realize that the theme is a lot clearer, and it’s part of my own life story.
Wow this interview rocks I never thought about looking at things like that.
I have three stories that I started many years ago and never finished and now they are collecting dust in my laptop. Maybe I should return to them but I am very busy with learning to draw and learning 3d that I forgot all about them.
Plus I have many insecurities that they won’t be good enough so I stopped writing, it’s the same with drawing and I am afraid I might stop drawing all together.
Hi, Andrea. You’re not alone. Everyone worries about not being “good enough.” Here’s what I have to say about that: http://chrisoatley.wpengine.com/will-terry/
Hey guys! Long time listener, first time commenter! I always listen to your episodes while I’m drawing. I’m currently trying to improve my skills before I start my personal project.
I liked what Brain said about star wars not having many famous actors in it. In my opinion sometimes a famous actor can get in the way of the audience enjoying the plot.
This was an interesting episode and I’ll definitely be re-listening to it.
Welcome to PWP–I’m glad you decided to join the conversation!
I agree with your point–sometimes we can’t help but see famous faces as famous faces. Especially once an actor is type-cast, which a lot (most?) super-star level actors are. If you go back to Al Pacino’s performance in Godfather before he was “Al Pacino,” I think it’s his finest performance. He’s playing Michael Corleone, not Al Pacino, and it shows.
I really loved this episode! You can practically hear Brian’s wisdom soaking into your brains!
Just yesterday I was hit with the overwhelming feeling of just how far I’ve got to go in my creative journey so I found it really encouraging to hear three successful artist’s learning as much from Brian as we did.
Thanks, guys!
Don’t they say your brain gets more wrinkled the more you learn? This interview was like soaking my brain too long in a tub. It became a raisin!
I think the biggest moment for me was when he empowered me to make my own decisions and to go with my gut. I have a tendency to undervalue my own opinion in favor of an ‘expert’s. Brian refused to play that part and gave me permission to believe in myself. (And I hope you all felt that way, too.)
He’s not only brilliant, he’s a great teacher. We’re so glad he’s a part of the Paper Wings family.
Agreed! That part was so powerful.
Man, what a great interview! I have all his book on your recommendations but yet to read them. I’m just so far from actually writing anything just yet (working on art first).
Listening to Brian and all his examples really changed my perspective on a good story. Really put the reason “why” it’s a good story into an understandable context. I am really looking forward to Part 2 and to when I get to the point I can read his books and begin to put them to use in combination with my art.
On a side note, it’s also just fun to listen to your crew just talk about stuff.
I think all of his illustrations were especially helpful in this episode. He talked about a lot of high concepts, but by using examples from films we’re all familiar with, he made those concepts very accessible.
Just wait until you read his books! I suggest listing to this again after you have.
I certainly will! I was even thinking I’d might as well just start reading his books now. I’m always writing down story ideas, plot lines etc.
Hey guys! Long time listener & first time commenter (like so many before me, I see). I’ve listened to this three times over now, and I still crack up every time I hear Justin’s brain explode at 57:45!
When I first saw this episode in my inbox, I was like YES. BRIAN MCDONALD WILL SAVE ME. I’ve been feebly trying to plot my first webcomic for months but kept getting stuck or, more often, overwhelmed and discouraged. Brian’s advice here has been such a big help to me already, and I can’t wait for part 2. I haven’t quite had an angel chorus breakthrough yet, but I feel encouraged and empowered by this new perspective and have a much better idea of how to fix the weak points I’ve already identified in my story. Fingers crossed!
Hello fellow listeners,
I’m a high school senior trying to figure the next best step in becoming a concept artist/animator in the industry, I still feel kinda lost . What do you advise ?Any advice would be greatly appreciated 😀
That was refreshing. You never know how deep the talent pool can get until you hear material such as this 🙂
Hey everyone, this thing referring to how one wants to keep characters or ideas and therefore the story cannot go anywhere specific is what I experience myself. Often I have a short theme in mind and it’s difficult to get into a specific happening or setting, as once I force myself I get all sorts of other ideas but not the ones I would need at this moment.
Today I explored a helpful technique to write literally what one thinks without caring about grammar and structure. It will end up in a large wall of text, and once one reads what has been written there will be short sections that seem very interesting, or different bits and pieces that could relate to one another. All these bits and pieces will be cut out and thrown into a more specific list.
Before I explored that technique I tried to backtrack from what I had, to explore a new story-theme or a possible event that leads to a current plot. The problem with that though is that it doesn’t allow to start from a completely different point of view. With that method described above I feel that I might be able to start on a completely different place or point in time, and yet finding a way to connect that to what I already have.
I especially struggle with throwing a character into a scenario that is giving him a challenge, because it feels too forced to me.
I am trying to have a character that I have to explore first, to see what he might go through. And from that point I can spread my ideas around him and the world he goes through. His fears and thoughts, at the end of the day, will build up on it’s own (yet still based on the very rough initial ideas).
Yet I am writing my story Forlorn Knights, many new characters and places occurred that can fill in remaining gaps. However, every new character creates new questions, an endless network of events, ideas, people, etc.
My question is: How can I exclude thoughts and ideas that I really do not need at a specific development step to stay focussed on a current idea? Is there a method where I can train my brain to stay at one spot of a worldbuilding instead of spawning endless ideas all over the place? (which I still want to continue but not at that point in time) I hope I didn’t miss that, I will definitely listen more often to this interview.
My goal is to leave something behind that people will stumble upon, that brightens up their day or entertains them, and maybe I will manage to motivate people to step closer to their dreams. I managed to have a best friend starting to write her own world and we have lots of fun to do brainstorming together, we kinda play a sort of “idea tennis”.
Some day, which is my dream, I want to have at least one of my stories told (finished) and I want at least one person out there to think after reading my story: “This changed my life, now I want to tell my story too!”
I need to calm the storm in my brain now… (and the interview definitely helped to generate new thoughts about my own characters, and how to use this to maybe improve the way they are written).
All the best, I’ll wait for part 2. 🙂
– David
Holy crap, this worked.
I’ve never considered myself a writer in any sense, and so have never tried to write my own stories. But I’ve had this one idea floating around in my head for a while, so while listening to this yesterday I sat down and wrote the whole afternoon away, given the tools Brian shared. This was very unexpected and everything came out so easy!
You guys are doing something really amazing with this podcast, can’t wait to hear more. Thank you to all three of you and to Brian for the ideas he’s happy to talk about.
Podcasts like these get me really excited and intimidated by the process of storytelling.
I feel like I have a solid theme for my personal project, and both the theme and the characters are strongly based off of myself and my past experiences. What scares me is if I’ve complicated the plot too much to make the overall story interesting. I try my best to have every detail and every moment have a purpose in driving the story forward and not just add “fluffy filler” for any plot holes I may have. But even then, is there such a thing as too much story-driving details? Will it overwhelm my audience if I add too much “busyness” into the story?
I guess it may get a little more complicated in a world created purely out of your own thoughts and imagination, where you have to establish the world you’re telling the story in. Then going on to expand this world with interesting facts and history to make it believable and captivating.
But about the podcast itself, it was very insightful. Brian had some amazing advice, and I look forward to Part 2! Thanks to you guys for asking all the good questions, as well.
Hey Chris, Laura and Justin!
Thanks for yet another great paper wings show! I’ve been listening to them from the very first episode until the newest one now the past few weeks everyday I’m heading to and from uni. And it has been great! I recently decided to slowly start developing a story that I want to write and illustrate into a comic at some point – and recently I’ve felt a bit stuck on how to progress my story, but today – after listening to this podcast I’ve realised I’ve included a lot of junk that I don’t need, so I am going to re-structure it. it also really helped me visualize the theme of the story so much clearer and I think that it will become a much stronger story in the end because of it. Even if I have to kill my main darling.
So thank you! I have already read the Invisible Ink, and I am working on the Golden Theme, I had no idea he had written more books. I’ll look into those too when I have a chance!
First, I’d like to thank everyone for listening and for all of the kind comments. And I would like to thank the Paper Wings crew for having me back. Thanks, guys.
There are too many comments for me too address each of them, but I did want to address two specifically, if that’s okay.
The first comment is addressed to Pete and his Snake v. Bugs in the Indiana Jones films comment.
Hello Pete,
When Raiders of the Lost Ark came out I was 16 years old and remember specifically how people reacted when they saw that pit of snakes. At that time I had already been a student of film because I knew by age 5 that I wanted to be a filmmaker. In fact, I already had a job in film doing motion graphics work. One of the things I began to do to advance my film knowledge is pay as much attention to the audience and its reactions as I did the film itself. Sometimes I would sit through multiple viewings of a film just to watch the crowd.
The snake reaction was one of recognition because Indy’s fear had been established way back in act one. People felt Indy’s apprehension to the snakes. Empathy is the single most powerful tool of the storyteller.
When Temple of Doom came out I was 19 and my mentor (Bruce Walters) in motion graphics was then in the animation department at ILM. He invited me to see a preview screening of the film with the crew. Before the show I got to go on a tour of ILM and see props from the film and meet cool effects people I had read about. It was one of the coolest things in my life. Still is.
I remember that George Lucas sat a few seats in front of me at the screening. This blew my 19-year-old mind.
My point is that this is also a film I was paying very close attention to. And if anyone was ever primed to like a film it was me at that moment.
I can tell you that the response to the film was tepid. People did react to the bugs, but it was pretty much just about being grossed out. It felt nothing at all like the Raiders reaction. The crew was almost embarrassed by the film, from what I could see.
I remember after I had seen the film I told all of my friends and co-workers that it wasn’t that good and they refused to believe me. When the film came out they agreed as did many people. People did not respond too well to that film. People who grew up watching the film have a love for it, but people who saw it after having seen Raiders in the theater were quite disappointed. No one I can remember thought it even came close to the first one. And I have to say I was very interested in what people thought. Their response was nothing at all like the response to Raiders.
This is a small point, however. My main point is that you are, of course welcome to disagree with me, but it may not help your learn. This may sound like my ego speaking, but it is not. This really is about you.
Here is something I have always done. If I hear something I don’t agree with from someone whose opinion I otherwise respect then I try to see what the are seeing. I ask myself, “What if I’m wrong?”
That simple question opens up all kinds of possibilities and new ways of seeing the world. It forces you to question your own responses, reactions and perceptions.
If you assume that the other person is wrong you have cut off that avenue of learning. It is as if you have decided to stop learning. You have cut off a new way of thinking.
Here are some old posts of mine that go into more detail:
http://invisibleinkblog.blogspot.com/2012/04/dont-be-afraid-to-grow-even-when-it.html
http://invisibleinkblog.blogspot.com/2012/03/jack-kirby-and-pablo-picasso.html
http://invisibleinkblog.blogspot.com/2006/06/humble-improve.html
I hope those posts help make my point.
Thanks so much for your comments and for listening to the podcast.
The next person I would like to address is Naomi.
Hello Naomi,
Thanks so much for listening and for reading the books. And I am sorry about your health struggles. I know some people with lyme disease and it can be a pain.
Theme can be tricky for people until they get it. Once they get it they find it indispensable. Part of the problem has to do with how we think about writing. I hate that we use the word writing for both the physical act and the act of storytelling because I think it confuses storytellers about the purpose of our task. We think that of we write that a theme will just present itself because there are words on the paper or screen. That can happen, but I have taught hundreds of people and this magical thing rarely works out and they have many, many abandoned stories and false starts.And if the magic does work, it may never work for you again. Magic is a tricky business and is often unrepeatable.
Back to storytelling. Human beings are natural storytellers. We do it everyday without even thinking about it. And all of the rules of storytelling (writing) are contained in the parent form, which is just conversation.
When you are talking about something in your life you have a theme. You have a point you want to make and you make it. You only use pertinent details, characters, scenes and settings.
You might start a story with, “It’s a bad idea to loan money to friends.” Or, “Make sure you get a second opinion about that surgery because I knew a guy who…” Or, “I wouldn’t trust that guy. One time…”
You always have a point when you tell a story in life. Then when we sit down to “write” we think of it as some artificial thing that we imposing on stories, but it isn’t. The “rules” for storytelling are rooted in human communication.
I want you to imagine talking to someone who seems to have no point. They talk. And talk. And you are okay for a while, but sooner rather than later, you start wondering where this is going. You have no idea what aspects of the story to pay attention to. As a listener you become restless. And very soon your brain wanders or you find a reason to leave.
But for some reason in stories we think our job is to add details and kind of meander without much of a focus. Or we think it makes the work mechanical or stillted. We never think this in life when we tell a story, it is only when we sit down to create that this seems false or difficult.
Stories without a focused theme are the ones that most readers put down and for some reason never quite get back to. Some folks will, if they like your world or something — but most, like talking to a person without a point, will politely look for the exit.
I suspect that you have something to say. I suspect that it is compelling and has the power to move people. There may even be something that you are afraid to say. That’s where the gold is. What are you afraid to say?
Your job is to look inside yourself and to find that thing that is there. That thing you need to say. That thing that you have learned about how the world works. Or how it doesn’t work. Or how people should be or shouldn’t be. Or you let people know that they are not alone in their suffering. You have something to say. Listen to yourself. Find it. Say that and only that.
Here’s a trick. Write the very last line of your piece. Don’t worry about the scene or setting. Those are details that can be worked out later. Just write the last line. Then go to the beginning and write a story that leads to that line.
The great Billy Wilder said, “Know where you are going.” That’s all theme really is.
Here’s something I wrote about theme:
http://invisibleinkblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/movies-i-like-redux-planet-of-apes.html
http://invisibleinkblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/movies-i-like-redux-planet-of-apes.html
Hope this helps. Glad you are getting some relief from the lyme disease. Hope it means, among other things, that you can get your creative work done.
Thanks everyone for the kind words and for allowing me to chime in here. Sorry I can’t answer you all.
— Brian
Hey Paperwings Team!
So I’m listening to the new podcast now and heard the plug for joining the paperwings newsletter and getting the free digital book when you join, but when I go to paperwingsshow.com I’m directed back to chrisoatley.com. Am I getting the web address wrong? I have already joined chrisoatley.com newsletter, is it the same as the paperwings newsletter? Thanks for your help guys and love the new material…..keep them coming…..MUST HAVE MORE!!!!! love ya guys!
Anthony
http://www.anthonystanleyart.com
Hey, Anthony!
Sorry for the confusion.
My mistake!
You can get your ebook here: http://chrisoatley.wpengine.com/creating-conflict-ebook/
Paper Wings Leaders… assemblllllllle!!! (sorry, couldn’t help myself) Great to have you guys back! Hope all’s been well!
Man, this was a fantastic episode. Any episode with Brian is bound to be a treat, really. The part about how it’s not writing to constantly rewrite the first ten pages of a story resonated with me. One of my best friends and I have been working on a story over the past couple of years, and we were constantly reworking our prologue and not actually getting anywhere. I think our progress was stunted by fear – we wanted to make the best story possible, and I know for myself (I’m drawing, my friend is writing), I didn’t think the art was good enough and kept thinking of things to change. So, at least for myself, I think I was sabotaging our progress due to my own fear of inadequacy. This year, thanks to talking things through and acknowledging those fears, figuring out our story’s theme, and for myself in large part taking Films on Paper and reading Invisible Ink, we’ve moved past those first few pages, are almost through the first chapter (and working on the 2nd), and we have a solid launch date, all in the span of a few months. It was so important to recognize what was holding us back, and man, once we did, there was nothing holding us back. And now we know what to watch out for in the future.
Also everyone should take Films on Paper if possible. It’s the best and Justin is awesome it’ll change your life seriously guys it’s amazing!
Have a great day, you guys! Can’t wait for part 2
– Jess
I listened to this last week about two days after it came out and my mind was blown. Theme is something I grab onto when I watch tv (I don’t watch movies unless I can pause them and run around the house). I’ve been struggling with theme for the past three or four months with the story I’ve been writing. It’s been there all along, but I didn’t know exactly how to describe it.
Then two days ago, I couldn’t get this page of The Dreamer out of my head after watching the “Past Imperfect” episode of Warehouse 13: http://thedreamercomic.com/comic.php?id=45
I started writing a little thing in my head about a group of characters dealing with the supposed loss of one of the other characters. The questions “Why me? Why now?” just wouldn’t leave.
So I made a chart. I wrote out the theme at the top, and then wrote the character’s name, their “hell” in the story (because each character goes through their own variance of hell in every story, at least as far as I have seen), their “why me?” (how they think they got to their hell and why), their “what now?” (that they think they should do next and what they actually do next), and how their plot is resolved. I cannot tell you how much it has helped my original story. It’s led me to finding hidden aspects of the characters I’d never even realized were present! I did it for every character that I could think of, too, which made it interesting. Totally worth it. Hope this type of chart helps others, too. 🙂
Thanks for the inspiration!
Hi Chris. Just wanted to saw how much I enjoyed this podcast. Probably my most favorite to date. Well done. You’re always pushing forward. Good luck at CTN this year!
OMG i don’t know where to start but the moment Brian explained how he creates his work every problem i had with all my personal projects just disappeared, i feel like I’ve fixed & finished all my story’s in my head. I was trying to create my character first but my theme & character just wouldn’t click. I kept thinking my character is boring & had no conflict how can i make conflict, how can i spice this up i ended up changing & cutting over and over again until my story was a completely different story. i kept over thinking i wanted to be original then it wasn’t action pack enough finally i gave up on the story but in my heart i wanted to tell this story so i couldn’t give up on it. what brain said about being someone who has to feel what they create but not remembering how i do it. i feel like I’ve had this problem since high school every time i try to recreate it i fail because i don’t know how i do it. i’m also dyslexic so i don’t know if that contributed to my complex thinking but i feel like i was reading a book backwards & someone turned the book around & reviled that the book had words & pictures.
Show less
Hey friends-
Awhile ago, I listened to Chris’ post about skill builder challenges. Well- I’ve put one up on my blog, and if anyone would like to join me starting in the new year (only one month away) I wanted to invite you!!!
https://abigailplatter.wordpress.com
Here’s a hint: you will totally MASTER this ;)))
Not sure where else to comment, so hopefully this is a good place!!
I’ve really been enjoying this podcast (and older podcasts when it was just Chris) ever since I found it several months ago. As I sit and draw at my desk, few things are as inspiring as listening to other creative people / artists talk about their craft.
That said, I really enjoyed the previous interview with Brian McDonald, so I was excited to see him back for this one.
Probably like most of us, I love the art/act of creating because there are things / messages I want to express, and I suppose I’m just wired to express them via artwork / stories. It was quite affirming to hear such a seasoned and wise story writer like Brian say that we all have things we want to say. That’s when I find creating the most satisfying!
For shorter stories I pretty much start with a theme – a feeling – and try to find a way to communicate that through some sort of analogy or imagery. Interestingly, for longer stories I tend to focus more on character or plot, and don’t really have a clear target for theme. But Brian’s approach makes a lot of sense.
I definitely want to share this podcast with others, and listen to it again. In fact, I’m probably going to go back and listen to the first interview with Brian again.
Thanks so much for all you do, Paper Wings team!!
Great show, and I’ve been learning at your feet for a long time. I am not sure this question has been answered before. But, how does one approach the Armature in a comic series. One with a number of story Archs? Is the approach the same as one would a single story?
I take more notes during the Artcast and Paper Wings Show podcasts than I did in any of my semester-long film school classes. I’m learning a lot and thank you all so much for doing these shows! The two-part interview with Brian McDonald is one of my favorites so far!
I feel SO LUCKY that I haven’t started my project yet! To have found you (Chris) plus Lori, Justin and Brian when I am at the very beginning of my project and working out the theme is such a boon. I am so naive I thought that “theme first” was the way I was supposed to do it from reading John Truby (“Anatomy of a Story”). He says to start with theme and I didn’t even know what to do with that so I Googled and found all this amazing stuff from you guys. I haven’t even written ONE WORD yet besides doing morning pages from Julia Cameron’s “Artist Way” and I have all this great stuff to propel me on.
Just wanted to sneak in a huge THANK YOU! I wanted to say how much I enjoyed this episode! I’m applying for a Masters in game design and development soon. The course is very, very story based, and this podcast has given me so many tools to apply to my portfolio and application. Thanx 🙂 I just popped into Amazon and ordered Invisible Ink, can’t wait to read it!
hi,
I’m new here and i had a question. How do i create a character? I mean when i start writing the plot is the first thing that comes on my mind then the theme then the characters you could say i am struggling to create a character that would suite for my plot and i’m not sure where i should start or am i over thinking? I hope it’s okay It would be a great help you could give me some advice.
Thank you.