“Everybody’s looking for the elevator. There is no elevator. You have to climb the mountain.”
-Brian McDonald
Brian McDonald wrote the two best books on storytelling that I have ever read. (I have read a lot of books about storytelling.)
‘Invisible Ink’ will equip you as a storyteller. ‘The Golden Theme’ will give you a sense of purpose as a storyteller.
Brian has taught story classes at Pixar, Disney Feature Animation AND Lucasfilm. So though I can’t be 100% certain, I think that certifies him as the coolest guy on the planet.
He’s also written a bunch of comics including ‘Abe Sapien: Drums Of The Dead.’
In our interview, Brian shares some interesting insight about working at Pixar that will cure you of any anxiety you’ll experience about your own story craft.
Read on for more about storytelling, links to Brian’s books as well as some of his own book recommendations…
“Just because this is hard doesn’t mean you’re failing.”
-Brian McDonald
Lora and I have said from the beginning that the single most important thing in your entire comic is the story.
Everything else can be held together with chewing gum and shoelaces but a strong story is the only way to elevate and transcend the medium of comics. It’s the only way to make a comic that means something.
“If you ever feel like you’re there. You’re not there.”
-Brian McDonald
If you’re going to create an indie comic with an audience of more than a handful of people, you absolutely have to tell an engaging story.
Lora and I have also said that the good news for all of us is that storytelling is a learned craft. …just like drawing or golfing.
(Sure, there’s the ambiguous “talent” factor but that’s just too ambiguous to evaluate. …and even if we could evaluate our own talent, would we want to? I don’t think I’d want to.)
My point is: This episode will help to make clear what greatness in storytelling is and how you can achieve it. That’s Brian’s deal. He approaches the mysticism of storytelling with practicality. He treats storytelling as both an art AND a science and he’s an incredible communicator.
…which is why we wanted to interview him.
When will we ever feel equipped to craft a story that will resonate with people? Why not now?
Press play and aim high.
“There is no ‘Advanced.’ ‘Advanced’ doesn’t mean you learn more complicated concepts. The simple concepts get more complicated. ‘Advanced’ means that you get a deeper understanding of the basics. So the thing is to not be afraid of the basics. People who are novices run away from ‘simple.'”
-Brian McDonald
Books by Brian McDonald:
Invisible Ink: A Practical Guide To Building Stories That Resonate
The Golden Theme: How To Make Your Writing Appeal To The Highest Common Denominator
Freeman: A Novella In Screenplay Form
[ Also check out Brian’s ‘Invisible Ink’ Blog and Follow Brian on Twitter ]
Books That Brian Recommends:
‘Bill Idleson’s Writing Class’
Paddy Chayefsky: The Television Plays
Still Hungry?
Here’s another amazing interview with Brian about the future of storytelling. It’s from a really cool interview show called The High Bar. [ thehighbar.tv ]
HOT DOG!!! I can’t WAIT to listen to this! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!
Your brain is going to melt, Sam. Mine did. : )
I thought I was the only one who missed that show!? Men of a certain age should have stayed on air. I hadn’t watch TV for a while before that show and I found because I looked up Scott the actor to see what he was doing. I”m a 24 yr women and yet I really loved and related to this show.
bastard, they didn’t know what they had and did everything they can to not build an audience, no advertising, inconsistant schedule horrible tv slot… I”m glad at least that Mad men had less eps cause I didn’t care for the show. I”m only a little sad about it cause another actor I like showed up in ep 4.
I haven’t ‘Freaks and Geeks’ but I’ll add ‘Men Of A Certain Age’ to my queue as well!
Chris and Lora. That was just an awesome interview with Brian.
A ton of useful information. Definitely worth listening to over again.
I’ll be picking up the book today.
Thanks,
Louie
Welcome, Louie … you have some great artwork on your site! Be sure to stop by later this week a witness the explosion of winger-comment-goodness!
I just listened to it today (we recorded back in early March) and i was learning stuff all over again!
So glad it was helpful to you all. A huge thanks to Brian for being on our show.
So happy to find this here today! I finished Invisible Ink last week, and I can’t stop thinking about what I have learned there. (Also of note, Brian’s blog is a *fantastic* resource, too!) I have Golden Theme on order, but I will be re-reading I-I again for sure.
It’s funny Lora asked about LFWC and how to kind of go back and fix things – if it’s even possible – especially in light of Wilder’s comment about Act 3 problems being in Act 1.
So I’m preparing my book that will cover all 4 years of Marooned when the story wraps up this year. I finish Brian’s book and then I’m looking at my early archive and just banging my head on the desk! I mean I knew there were problems already, but sheesh!
But the good thing is, he equipped me to realize what I could do to fix things. I was able to realize that I did do some things right, or I was close enough to were I can adjust a few strips, I can add one or there and make things much better than they were. So at least for me experientially, yes, it is possible to go back and fix things as long as you weren’t too far off the track in the first place.
Great interview, I could listen to Brian talk about story all day. Can’t wait to read the Golden Theme.
Great to hear the success, Tom! Your comic looks like alot of fun and it’s great to see your courage in reworking it! I could also listen to Brian all day … but I’ve got some storywork to do!
I asked that comment for myself. 😉 But I thought it would be useful to all of you, too.
I love his advice that sometimes you were onto something and you can uncover it and work from there. Other times you should just start over.
Just yesterday I was telling a friend about something my husband had said to me this weekend that really rattled me in a self-revelatory way. I was telling the story from a, “This amazing thing happened yesterday” point of view. But I looked at her face as I told it and she looked horrified. “Wow,” she said. “That’s really honest and hard.”
I guess it had been really honest and hard, but I hadn’t even felt like that. Why? Because I know my husband loves me more than anyone else on God’s green earth. We have spent over a decade with each other and I know his heart and his heart is for me. Everything he says or does is for my best. That doesn’t even need said between us anymore. So when words come out of his mouth, they cross through that filter to be interpreted in my brain.
When Chris & I talk about the Circle of Trust–THIS is what we are looking for. Who are those people who can point out the crappiest parts of yourself (or your story) and say, “This isn’t working, you need to cut it out” and it is ENCOURAGING. Find those people. Be vulnerable with them, and take what they say to heart.
Sometimes, it’s hard, but we really do need to tell each other, “…dude, just start over.” Your creative friends are pouring their life and livelihoods out into this chance to make it on their own. What’s the best thing you can do for them? Shoot straight and in doing so, help them get there faster without wasting so much time and energy.
Lora I really hope that this is a part of what lies ahead for us here on Paper Wings. There is already a lot of that going on amongst some of us, sharing a story idea here and some character sketches there, but a dedicated Forum for post & critiques would be so cool!
^ I second this! ^
Lora, I’ve been thinking a lot about this bit of insight, and I’ve never really thought about criticism in this way before. Understanding your husband’s criticism as encouraging rather than judgmental and harsh, which is how it might sound to other people, goes to show how important it is for creative professionals to cultivate relationships in life (and to do so by being good humans!). When there are people in our lives who we know have only our best interests at heart, then there’s no question that we would take criticism as encouragement. We couldn’t take it any other way, since it’s understood that the advice is given with our own interests and goals in mind: to make the best comic, illustration, or story that we can. Thanks for sharing these thoughts!
I always say, “Who has the right to tell you ‘no’?” Is there *anyone* in your life you’d hand the reigns over to?
I think we all need people who can tell us no. It’s often for our own good. If you don’t have people like that in your life look to whoever seems closest and start to open up. Going deep takes time and that kind of trust has to be earned. But once it is, those friendships are invaluable.
Glad this helped!
Holy GOLD!!!!!! You’ve convinced me, Brian – I want to climb the mountain. (Actually, you’ve already convinced me because I’ve read your books and have felt so much more equipped to tackle storytelling). Chris & Lora – I think you’ve attracted the wingers because of the type of people YOU are.
There was so much great stuff here, sorry if I go a bit long. The next Brian McDonald technique I need to apply to my story is : CLARITY. I’ve been thinking about that with my current (side) project – and I just realized I need to write a map of my theme, actually writing the points necessary to prove the point, and then make sure my story clearly communicates this theme.
Beyond this, this podcast really cut deep into my current situation. I’m currently pouring most of my energy into breaking BACK into the animation industry. This consists of constantly animating better tests and building professional relationships. And as you pointed out, part of me is grateful I am still struggling to get the next job because I am growing so much.
I was surprised when a few months ago, an animation professional told me to cut my villian shot from my demo reel and I DID cut it without hesitation. Am I relaxed in the struggle? Not all the time, but I was that time. Progress!!!
One thing I’ve been thinking about is that I’ve met animators who’ve been working for YEARS and they have perfect arcs, body mechanics, facials, etc. But their work hasn’t ever transcended …. WHY? I want to work on Pixar / Miyazaki / Disney / Dreamworks caliber projects. So how do I get there? So far, I’ve been:
1. Stepping out of the tradition of finding movie clips and trying to animate from those.
2. Applying story structure to create moments that feel like part of a real film.
3. Working with vocal actors in a process of line reading and improv.
4. Shooting for Pixar level animation.
I’ve also been searching long a hard to discover how I can be one of those lifelong climbers in the animation industry – those who survive industry change and become assets to the industry as a whole. (Like Chris is going to be – I’m sure of it). And I think the principles in this podcast and Brian’s books are what I’ve been searching for, I really do. And of course, if anyone else has suggestions – I’m hungry to hear them.
“A theme map” – great idea, Scott!!
If you guys want to see an example of how Joel and I do this, check out my post titled: “How To Write A Comic Book Script (and Other More Important Things)”.
http://www.paperwingspodcast.com/2012/02/how-to-write-a-comic-book-script/
Great example. I did made this theme map this morning …. and since my story structure is already mostly in place, I actually wrote it as an argument. I didn’t even mention character names, locations, etc – just the bare-bones points necessary to fully, clearly communicate the theme. Doing so was very enlightening and caused my brain to already go back through the story and think of parts to cut + parts to emphasize. My favorite result of this is that I had one character doing something earlier in the story and I realized it should be a different character doing that same act – thus adding more clarity to the meaning.
One thing I’m thinking about doing next (once the characters are designed) is storyboarding the section I really need to clarify visually. Then I will add both the boards and book to my story portfolio (if I ever actually get to making one). What do you think? Does that sound like a waste of time or a productive exercise?
“Applying story structure to create moments that feel like part of a real film.”
I’m not in the animation industry, and as such, I will offer no advice about it. But I will say that your divining rod is getting pretty close to finding water with the above statement.
The people whose stories transcend and characters connect with audiences are the people who rise to the top. This is why Chris & I push your “personal project” (Whatever it may be) over and over and over again. THIS is where you can tell your story. Your voice, your heart, your imagination are king.
It’s also the reason we love indy comics/ web comics so much. It’s one of the easiest, fastest ways for an artist to tell a story. Far faster than making your own movie, for instance. It’s not so much that comics are the ultimate form of storytelling. It’s that they are a manageable form of storytelling for the solo-creator trying to make his mark on his world.
“It’s also the reason we love indy comics/ web comics so much. It’s one of the easiest, fastest ways for an artist to tell a story.”
Well you’ve definitely convinced me of this … I’m working on one right now. It’s a side project, but I’m thoroughly enjoying it and can’t wait to send this art & story out into the world. Thanks so much, Lora.
Wow, what a fabulously awesome interview. Can’t thank you guys enough for the amazing lessons you provide to us each week. This is definitely going to be a “multi-listen” episode. Gonna hit the replay button till it breaks!
I breathed a sigh of relief when Brian talked about simple stories. I’ve been a bit concerned lately about my script’s lack of complexity, especially since I’m just coming off the A Song of Ice and Fire book series, what with like 4000 characters, but now I’m reassured that it can still be good!
I’m going on vacation this week, hopefully I will be able to read at least one of his books while I’m away (as well as all the webcomics I’ve bookmarked that I need to catch up on hehe)
I couldn’t put Invisible Ink down. Once you read it, stop back over and tell us what you think.
Oh, and have a good vacation! #jealous
Same here, in regards to the Simplicity issue.
I get so annoyed when, after watching a movie with friends, for example, any of them will try to write it off as too simple and thus a “bad” movie. On the other end, I cringe when people praise a movie (or any story) on the sole merit that “it makes you think.”
Of course it does. It doesn’t need to be complex to make you think. You can ponder (possibly more deeply and more personally) over simplicity! You can more readily RELATE to simplicity… (overly) complex stories—sure, they make you think, but—they force you to think of how you can relate to that story.
The Matrix. First movie is, on the surface, quite complicated. But it was created (as far as I know and am told) as pretty much a stand-alone narrative. Sure it gets an open-ended conclusion, but you can tell it was crafted to tell one succinct story. Within that, the story itself (while relying on some lofty concepts) is pretty straight forward.
Fast-forward to the sequels. I honestly don’t recall much of what happend in those movies. More crucially, of the things that do happen, I don’t really remember WHY they happened. There were some cliches that made for some inevitable conflicts and resolutions, but ultimately I just feel like the second and third movies were a string of events that happened in succession, that just so happened to carry over characters and concepts from the first movie. In the moment, they’re flashy and cool, but I gained no real thought-provoking insight from them, despite their “complexities.”
Now take any Pixar movie. Simple, yet bountiful with questions and personal revelations. The simplicity most would try to pass off as kid’s stuff, but ask those same people (assuming they saw it) how they reacted to the ending of Toy Story 3. Then ask them why. For the most part it’s going to be young adults and parents who have the strongest reaction to the conclusion of such a simple story (one, I might add, that was sustained in various forms over all three films).
I know, it’s like apples to oranges with those two series, but sometimes you really can just get away with comparing the two. And again, as a standalone movie, I think the first Matrix is still pretty fantastic, so I’m not just trying to knock it. I just think the sequels tried too hard to incorporate what the first did just fine without.
I haven’t listened, yet, but I can’t wait to do so once the kids are in bed. I bought Invisible Ink awhile ago when it was suggested on this site, and it was amazing.
Not to derail the topic, but I had been struggling with the opening for the first chapter in my comic when Chris’s post about the Seven Dwarves inspired me to try something completely different with it. I ended up rewriting pretty much the whole chapter (meaning a grand number of pages will have to be redrawn, but oh well). I have a very difficult time getting beta readers and feedback, so I’m hoping some fellow wingers will take pity on me and help me out (since I don’t want to spend time redrawing if it’s not actually an improvement >.>)? My e-mail is theslyeagle(at)gmail(dot)com if you want to contact me there, or you can just reply to this with your e-mail or something if you prefer. Thanks in advance!
Sly, this is the same reason (well, one of the reasons) I decided to put my comic on hold. I started re-writing so much of it that it necessitated re-drawing and I realized it would be worth the wait. Sometimes, we can over-work stuff because we’re afraid to release it but I used up my whole buffer and knew that I couldn’t afford (emotionally, mentally) to just knock out pages. They had to be good so I had to pause…
You want a Beta-reader? I can read. I’m awesome at putting eyeballs to pages. You really shouldn’t redraw stuff if it’s not actually an improvement, so let’s get to improving your script!
Awesome! How do I get it to you?
Awesome interview. Thanks so much for posting this.
I am also a big fan of his theories. And I needed this to remind of what to work on.
Big Thanks!
Brian McDonald speaks the truth. He’s been my story mentor for a while now. Thank god he emphasizes the story so much, or else I would never be where I am today.
Yeah. It’s awesome how he doesn’t just yell at us and make us feel guilty about not being great already. …nor does he just preach and preach and preach, ignorant of the fact that different kinds of people learn and process things in different ways. (There are some who call those lazy cop-outs “teaching.”)
In other words, Brian’s a REAL MENTOR.
*And for anyone who has been misled, confused, crapped-on or demeaned by someone in a teaching or mentor role, you don’t deserve that kind of treatment. You deserve someone with a heart like Brian’s.
Read this post for more on the topic of “anti-mentors”: http://www.paperwingspodcast.com/2012/04/successful-artists-bad-advice/
You got that right Chris! Early on I went south of my calling because of the lack of direction being offered in art school. I’m completely responsible for the choices I’ve made in my life, but had I had THIS kind of mentorship back then, I’m certain things would be different.
Chris & Lora, thanks so much for hosting this interview. I’ve been reading your posts and listening to the podcast for a bit now. I’m grateful for all your hard work and for generously sharing all these fantastic resources.
I’m self-publishing my first book this year and I’m almost done with it but have been really coming down hard on myself on its quality even though I know it’s my first, and I want and will get better than this.
Hearing about how everyone struggles with the same issues as I do is just what I need right now and just having practical, applicable solutions to story problems at hand is incredibly helpful.
Will definitely be seeking out Brian’s books and recommendations. Thanks!
Thanks, Laur! Congrats on the publication of your first book! That’s so exciting! Share the link if you get a sec!
It’s called Polterguys and it’s available on my site as a webcomic. 😀 http://laurbits.com/about-polterguys
It’s about a smart but socially awkward college girl who moves into a house haunted by a bunch of cute guys. She’s the only one that can see these ghosts so she helps them resolve their unfinished businesses.
To keep this comment from being too self-serving- I wholeheartedly agree with Brian’s advice on knowing the theme and the reasons you’re writing the story. For me, this series is my personal exploration of loneliness, the need to connect with others and of course, mortality. I’ve always gravitated to stories with these subjects and would like to honor my inspirations as well as create something uniquely my own.
With such lofty aspirations, my only hope is I can do the work some justice with my currently very, very limited skill sets. 🙂 (This blog has been so helpful in keeping me encouraged along the way!)
I read some of your story. Even within the first few pages, I can tell you don’t have anything to worry about. I haven’t gotten into the story full-on just yet, but but the artwork is pretty solid and the story is at least initially compelling and relatable. In the age of geek-chic, there will be a LOT of people who can relate to this.
Rock on, sister.
Thank you for the kind words, Jules! Looking forward to reading your comic as well! : )
Welcome, Laur! Love your drawing style! Can’t wait to dig in to the rest of the story.
Thanks, Chad! The Wingers sure are a great bunch. 🙂
Wonderful stuff. Thank you guys so much for this!!
You’re welcome, Michael!
Thank you for the show! I read/listen to advice/tutorials/pep-talk, etc. for a while now, to the point where I no longer have any question that helps anymore, because it’s really time to just climb the mountain (and fall down a lot). I have climbed one small mountain, it was a “simple” story, but “clarity” might not have been achieved. So the next project should aim for that.
Still, appreciate all the work involved in keeping PaperWings going. Thanks!
Hey Brushmen! Not to fear! Chris and Lora hand out Paper Wings Knee and Elbow pads to make the climb a little safer. 😀
Another gold nugget in your podcasts. I feel so rich!
There may be hope for my work yet, though it feels like I’ll never get the hang of this “story” thing.
Thank you once again guys and gal.
Off topic, of sorts, do you get that ‘small percentage’ from Amazon only if the purchases are physical books and not eBooks? I just nabbed Invisible Ink and The Golden Theme on Kindle editions. Maybe you could consider linking to those sometimes too, if they’re available.
Thank you so much, Amanda.
As long as you use any of our links to click through to Amazon.com, we will receive about 8% of the purchase that was made on that same visit to Amazon.
You don’t actually have to buy the specific item we link to – as long as you use one of our links. But if you don’t buy during the same visit that originated at one of our links, we don’t get the percentage.
Thanks again!
Oh cool. I had to do a search for the kindle version so thought it might have interfered. If it’s just a case of clicking, shame it applies only once, ha!
*clicks a million times just in case*
Because you’re worth it.
Oh, it will apply every time you purchase through our links – even if you don’t purchase the thing we link to.
For example, you could click on our Paper Wings link to “Book A” then browse around Amazon and change your mind. So then let’s say you end up buying “Book B”, “Book C” and “Book D” but NOT “Book A.”
Then Paper Wings will receive about 8% of the total sale of all three books. Even though you didn’t buy “Book A” at all.
Because the sale originated with a link on our site.
And you could, theoretically start with one of our links EVERY time you need to buy ANYthing on Amazon.com and as long as you go through one of our links ON YOUR WAY to Amazon, we will receive about 8% of the sale.
And you can do that as many times as you like. And for us, the more the merrier. It doesn’t cost you anything extra.
The only way we would NOT get the 8% commission would be if you clicked on the link to “Book A”, browsed around Amazon and then didn’t buy anything. Then you closed your browser.
If you thought about it and decided that you DID want to buy “Book A” after all, then you opened your browser and typed in “http://Amazon.com”, searched for “Book A” and bought it then.
…we would not get the sale because the actual sale didn’t start with our link.
Point is, if you use our links before you buy things on Amazon, Paper Wings will get about 8% of that sale at no extra cost to you.
Thanks for looking out for us!
Your right to feel that way Amanda. We’ve heard from the best that those who are, never do feel they have the hang of it. I’m beginning to see that story is a wonderfully precarious balance of structure and serendipity.
Goose Bumps. You guys are giving me Goose Bumps! First off I really want to thank Brian for this. It means so much to all of us that you are so wonderfully approachable and real. When I finished Invisible Ink, and even more so when I finished The Golden Them, I felt invigorated, inspired, more than simply prepared to do this. As I was reading, the armature of my story became so clear! That alone is priceless! Oh man, Blah blah blah you’ve heard it all before but your BRILLIANT! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!
Lora you are so right. Artists can really underestimate the craft of writing. THERE IS SO MUCH TO THIS! That is why this has become my creative home. I’ll never back away from this challenge and being a part of the Paper Wings community is equipping me for the struggle.
Awhile back, I asked you guys advice on whether to finish out my story, or go back and tidy up the first two issues. I wanna tell you your advice to push on to the end was SPOT ON! Invisible Ink and The Golden Them have iced the cake.
It will mean more than a few redraws and simple rewrites, but I can do this!
Maybe I’m just an endorphin junky, but something tells me work can be more than just adequate. I can’t wait to get to the redoes, but first, on to the finnish! (I know you asked that question just for me Lora.) 😀
Chris, I LOVE your enthusiasm! As I’m listening, I wish I were in the room with you guys! You know, great conversation produce great endorphins too! Thanks for my fix!
Melting, my brain is. 😀
We gotta have another PW/ Illopond crossover soon, Sam!
Thanks so much for your encouragement. Made my day.
That would be Awesome Blossom!
Our hope at PW is to put those endorphins to good work.
If you’re getting high from your creation, that’s not a bad thing! We just want it to be put to good use!
Nothing is as disheartening as pouring out your whole self into creating something and it fizzles or bombs. Let’s use the inspirational adrenaline for good, and harness it to the greatest effect.
Efficiency and hitting the mark. This is the PWP way. This will give you small and (sometimes big!) wins along the way that will keep you motivated after the initial inspiration runs out.
Fantastic interview! I devoured Brian’s ‘Invisible Ink’ (though I was slightly annoyed that four years worth of Writer’s Digest subscription was summed up in one much less expensive book), and I have ‘The Golden Theme’ on my list to get.
I have to mention how much I appreciate the kind words for Norman Rockwell. He is a huge influence on my work, and it is always disheartening how many people think he was a cheat for using photography and for having subject matter that was “too happy” (whatever that’s supposed to mean).
The entire interview was amazing (definitely going to hit the repeat button a few times!), but I especially enjoyed the discussion on clarity. In my current work, I’m developing an illustrated novel (combination of a full-length novel and a picture book), and at the moment I’m figuring out what I want to be written and what I want to be illustrated.
For me, the most important parts to convey visually is the reaction(s) to an event. For example, if character A slaps character B, I would want to see the emotion or action that happens after the slap; does B get mad, or hurt? Does A feel bad, or fulfilled? Most of the time, my illustrations are of characters with subtle changes in emotion. My point being, just because I convey most of my work through subtly, I should always make sure it is still clear to the viewer what is happening and just not in my own head.
Thanks Chris, Lora, and Brian for yet another inspiring talk!
I think clarity in your panels is important. Does what we’re seeing make sense without word balloons or description? It should. If someone is flipping through your book can they get a sense of what it is about without reading it? If you think about Rockwell’s pieces every single one tells a story with no (or almost no) text.
What Brian was talking about, I think, though, was clarity in writing. Do you have a theme? And can people pick it out easily because you’ve been clear about it. You’re right, that concept translates to art as well. And as visual storytellers we need to be cognizant of both as we’re creating for an audience.
Thanks everyone for the kind words. I’m happy if I have said anything that helps any of you become better storytellers.
Your passion and enthusiasm in this podcast is contagious! Thank you for sharing! I’m currently waiting for amazon to send my copy of framed ink over the pacific!! Very excited to read!
You should be happy, then, Brian. I promise.
Thanks, one more time, for being on the show!
I think it’s fair to declare, ‘mission accomplished.’
Hi Brian,
Have you found that you structure story differently for comics as opposed to film/tv?
Thanks again for contributing to our community.
Hello Brian!!!!
Thank you so very much for the interview! I just loved being right there in the digital room with all of you and this conversation! Only thing missing was the smell of our coffees and dropped jaw that I could hear Chris pick up off of the table multiple times! Ha Ha, we all geeked out for the three of you.
Thank you for helping us!!
Such a great podcast! I listened to it on the way to work, and again on the way home so I woould be inspired after the long day to just have fun with my art! I have also been known to look for the catapolt than climb the mountail, but I am slowly turning this around.
I would never second guess Spielberg’s status as a film genius. I was once listening to Chris Sanders and Dean DeBlois talk about the rewriting of How to train your dragon and Spelibergs little influence.
* heads up I may spoil the ending, I’ll try not too, watch the movie and return!
They were struggling with the scene after Hiccups “accident” at the end of the movie, wanting to show the pivotal changes that had happened as a result, and didn’t want Hiccup to just open the door and see the changes. Speilberg suggested that Toothless to be in the room with him when he discovers his “new amour” and take him to the “adapted” village. So simple but wow did that make the scene and show just how far Hiccup had come! Love it!
Thanks for putting this podcast together Chris, Lora & Brian. I feel like I have learned so much about story from Invisible Ink, it is a book I recommend to all my friends who create comics/short films.
I’m about to listen to the interview now.
Great interview and a nice surprise to see two episodes so close together. This was a huge help to me during a long art session and I’ll probably listen again to catch everything I may have missed.
I’d also like to point out that it felt like Laura and Chris were also learning right along with us. Its a nice feeling realizing that people you admire for being much farther in their own creative endeavors are still discovering new techniques and rethinking their ways of doing things. I’m sure everyone who listened and took part in the interview sat down at their desk and carried with them quite a few new things to think about before they started.
And to jump in on the “introducing of one’s self”, my name is Ben Hale and I’m a bit of a “Jack Of All Trades”. In my free time, I dabble in art, video (After Effects), animation (ToonBoom/Flash), and some CG (Cinema4D). Basically, I love to try new things and am afraid of sculpture 😉 Please come visit my blog at http://still-reaching.blogspot.com
Also, my friends and I have formed an art group called The Rust Belt Monster Collective. We’re a group of Cleveland area artists challenging each other with weekly themes and have just started doing public art shows. Come check out the site at http://www.rustbeltmonster.com
Well, you’re right about that: I think there are several points in the interview where you can hear Chris’s mind being blown. I just relistened to the interview yesterday when it launched and I learned stuff all over again.
Welcome, Ben! We’re glad you’ve introduced yourself. Do you know Thom Zahler? He’s an IDW Creator who lives in your parts.
Haven’t had the privilege of meeting him, but I’ve looked at his site and his work is great. Cleveland doesn’t really have any conventions, besides the Screaming Tiki one from a few years back, so its hard to mingle with fellow artists. My art group met through a local get together called Dr. Sketchy. Its basically a large group of people who meet for a life drawing session at a local bar. They do different themes each time (sci-fi, pirates, western) and bring in local models and performers to pose. I’d strongly recommend it for anyone looking for a way to find other artists in your own town and to make sure that you get out with your sketch pad.
I’ve been to a few Dr. Sketchy’s events. My first intro to it was an after-hours event at an anime convention in Huntington, WV. The outfit that organized it usually operates out of Charleston, WV, so in desperation for something to do and to actually get some much needed practice in, I made a roadtrip to one of their regularly scheduled events a couple months later.
Definitely fun. Didn’t really do a lot of mingling myself, just focused on the drawing. =)
But next time you’ll mingle, right? Right…? Or else we’ve taught you nothing. 😉
Indeed! I was young and uneducated then! (Six months ago, haha) =D
Yeah. The mingling came slowly for me too. It was actually a big deal for me to go to something like that not knowing anyone. Worked out pretty well though.
Great site, by the way. I’m definitely going to reference it for when I redesign my blog.
Oh, man, he had so many good points, but the one thing that I’d like to underscore is the whole “writing specifically for a genre” and why it’s not a good idea. I like to write in sci fi and one piece of advice I’ve heard sci fi writers put out is “develop your worlds.” And…that’s an okay piece of advice if you’re trying to establish a sci fi setting, but that’s all it does. Set the stage. Telling a compelling story should be the top priority of any storyteller, sci fi or not. If your characters are unrelatable, or wooden, or boring, then it won’t matter how pretty a picture you paint (or how many explosions you add). Potential readers will walk away.
Case in point: Battlestar Galactica (new one, not the 80’s glitter catastrophe) does an excellent job of transcending “sci fi” and telling a very human story. They touch upon themes of terrorism, and war, and separation, and desperation in ways that makes the characters involved seem very human. Sure, they’ve got technology, and cloned people, and space ships, but what really matters is stuff like “Is Laura Roslin going to throw the election to keep egomaniac Gaius Baltar out of office?” “How will the fleet save the citizens from the enemy occupation of New Caprica?” “When will Starbuck finally get to see dreamy Sam Anders again?” All of those points can take place in any story. They’re totally genre blind. They’re compelling, and that’s all that counts.
This is not to say that it’s a bad idea to keep in mind certain tropes out there. In sci fi, you frequently run into the “nerd” or the “scientist” character (madness optional). Knowing what the stereotypical “nerd/scientist” looks like can help a savvy writer keep things fresh and interesting. When I write Valkyrie Squadron, I am extremely aware of these tropes (being labeled a nerd myself and sick of seeing these annoying stereotypes over and over). The “nerd” guy isn’t socially awkward around girls or pining for a woman. He’s already got the girl. The “nerd” girl shows more signs of the stereotypical “awkward science geek” behavior, but she’s still an action heroine (and she’s African; we really don’t see enough dark skinned women in media excelling at science).
In summary, it helps to know the tropes so you’ll know what to break and how. But don’t be a slave to “genre writing.”
Man, Jules, we almost always agree. But this time I have to diverge from what you’re saying.
It was, “When will Sam Anders get out of the way so Lee has a chance???” 😉
Apart from that, I wholeheartedly agree. I think BSG is an excellent example of story telling, regardless of genre. You could pick up those episodes and drop them into WWII or a Napoleonic era warship and they would translate very easily. When you got to the end of every episode there wasn’t just a cliffhanger, there was a point.
“It was, ‘When will Sam Anders get out of the way so Lee has a chance???’ ;)”
We’ll have to agree to disagree. I liked Anders SOOOO much better as he didn’t bring any emotional baggage to the relationship (well, at least not until the end…). Lee just had too much going on with the dead brother who was also her fiancee, but then he marries Dee, and just….aaghh. That’s just way too complicated for my liking. Sam was just like “Hey, you’re cute. Wanna play some blitz ball?”
I like the idea of finishing off every episode (or comic issue?) with a point. A message. My favorite episode ending was when Gaius was preaching to his freaky religious followers and he ends the speech with “You are perfect just the way you are.” Man…just…oh, man. Hits so close to home.
She had already started something with Lee when she decided to try on Ander’s blitz ball. So not cool.
Bah. We’ll never agree. We need to call it before this divulges into girly nonsense.
Yes, I agree this can devolve quite quickly into fangirlery this site doesn’t need. No need to start passing out Team Adama vs. Team Anders shirts.
See? We agree on something.
Well, we’ve been doing Paper Wings for well over a year now and this is the first time I’ve digressed into fangirly silliness on this site. For the girl who does The Dreamer, I think I should be pretty proud of that stat…
p.s. My husband & I dressed up as Apollo & Starbuck for Halloween last year, lol.
You can get the actual audio interview Truffaut conducted with Hitchcock in 1962 below (Sorry I’m not sure how to add a hyperlink to text, so here is the URL)
http://www.filmdetail.com/2011/02/14/the-hitchcock-and-truffaut-tapes/
You can download a zip file with all of the audio interview.
I don’t have the book, but I have assumed this is the same material. If anyone can confirm that would be great.
Oh SWEET! Thanks Leigh! I was hoping for audio on some of these suggested sources. I think Brian should make audio books available for both his books! They were the first things I searched for on audible.com when I signed up.
THANK YOU!!!! Just started listening to it. Lots of French and translating going on (love Truffaut’s voice), but absolutely fascinating!
Thanks so much! I think I just found my new listening subject while drawing for the next few weeks.
Great stuff! Thanks for the interview, all!
I actually got a copy of Invisible Ink for a friend on her birthday (made sure to buy it through a PW link! hoho!). Haven’t snagged my own copy yet, but just knew from the accolade you guys have given Brian here on the blog in the last year or so that it would be up her alley. Just this weekend, she and I were actually discussing some excerpts from the book, and coincidentally enough the few topics she brought up to me were covered extensively by Brian in the interview, helping solidify those ideas in my head even more!
I rolled with Emily’s point on Simplicity a few comments below…
But Clarity… I think I’ve divulged into this a few blog posts back… It’s something I really struggle with. Being this sort of weird, introvert-entertainer hybrid, I’ve long thought the best outlet for me to expound some of my more personal musings would be through narratives. Just making something that can be universally appreciated to communicate some of who I am.
I don’t know if it’s the way I’m wired, or if I’ve still just been going about things the wrong way, but I almost never know how to sum things up. I’m sure my rambling comments here within the community can even be some small testament to that! =D
I can find things I at least *think* I want to say. Genuinely. I think I have trouble just committing to that and making the whole of my story constructs build around those one or two fundamental elements. I get caught up in, “well I’ve seen it done this way before, so maybe I should try it another way instead, but now my way doesn’t really serve the original intent of the story—it just makes something else simply happen.”
Something I’ve been quick to proudly admit to is that the original intent with Bonnie Lass was simply to do a myriad pastiche with storytelling harkening back to the golden age of Warner Bros. cartoons. “Epic” wasn’t in the original equation. There was a larger scale arc that was always in mind, but at most (early on) it was just an excuse to further define the setting. Issue #1 still has hints of this, and with a few script changes could have easily been a one-shot.
Basically, the “series” was initially crafted without much of a driving theme. One eventually arose as work on the first issue was rounding out, so I subtly worked it into the following issues (so as not to make it too jarring compared to the singularity of the first issue), but I sometimes wish we had just concepted out the full first arc from the beginning (admittedly, there was a plot—but character development was something that came later, as I worked on the scripts and art for the remaining three issues after #1’s completion), to really allow for a theme to breathe into every aspect.
Being clear with the theme is a struggle for me. Setting out to make every plot element and character nuance revolve around that theme is imposing. Sustaining that theme through the progression of the whole narrative… it’s easy to lose track of it. For me at least. Those of you who can start sticking to your guns at such an early stage, I aplaude you! =D
Papwerwings is like a refinery. The more I keep coming back here, the more I learn and the better equipped my mind is to buckle down and actually create stories, instead of just musing on them! Always a pleasure to drop in on the PW community! I hope my sporadic contributions help you all at least as much as you each help me!
(On another note, sorry for kind of disappearing after my initial posts last week. I took some of that inspired Inspiration and barrelled through a few outstanding freelance projects. Clearing up this week, I should be able to spend more time with all you fancy folks! Anything I could have said last week was exquisitely discussed and analysed better and more succinctly than I could have offered anyway! =D )
Ramble on my brutha! I too can keep the chat game going so you are not alone and I am an insane extrovert so we will convert you soon enough…vert!
On another note, the main way that I am looking to keep my stories clear early on (please know, I am not a writer so this is just an idea ) it to constantly remind myself that what ever layers, extra characters or events that I place in the story, “Can my main character/s still see their goal in the distance?” As long as they can still clearly visualize and strive for the goal/s they have (unless there is a real reasons for them to be blocked ) then I am being clear. My thoughts are that the readers/audience will be living the story through the main character so it is to those “people” that things must make sense. If it is visualized to the charters, then your audience should be able to follow them through the storms, valley and tribulations.
Just a thought but it might help you. Anybody please tell me if this sounds wrong or needs correction, I want to make sure this is right for Michael and all of us.
Thanks for being so awesome Michael!!
Haha i like that we are fancy & folk-like!
You know, Having listened for the second time, I think one of the most important takeaways from your discussion is accepting the “permission” to improve on our craft by looking to those who have gone before us. I had the same epiphany you had Chris. It was like, Finally! You have the permission to aspire to the greatness of Hitchcock or Spielburg, we have the permission to render an image with the deftness and clarity of Andrew Wyeth or Norman Rockwell or with the passion of Frank Frazetta.(Oh NO! not like Frazetta!) We can hone our craft, and then when we’ve gained the ability to “speak” we can bring what is inherently ours to it. And FINALLY! We can tell stories that have a meaning! A moral! a point! It’s almost like there’s been this conspiracy out there to mislead the novice to prevent future competition you know? “Don’t compare your work to others, don’t try to teach or impress a moral it’s preachy!” I mean the Emperor is naked isn’t he!?
Love it Sam!! I too was on this point because I believe that growing from the art of our masters is the reason we are growing so fast right now! Its the opposite of the Xerox effect in that we are BEGINNING our art with the FINISHED art the masters started with, it only goes up from there! And heck yeah! Bring on that Frazetta ( and Julie Bell, Marc Silvestri, Michael Turner, David Finch, Joe Benitez and blah, blah blah..I could go on for hours about the illustrators I admire! ) !
It’s all about being inspired rather than intimidated isn’t it captain? There is always the danger of becoming a mimic, but we avoid that by concentrating on learning the craft.
OK and, “There is no elevator, you gotta climb the mountain.” No short cuts. And, “you gotta know where your going”, and “tell real stories” and… Shikes there is so much meat to chew on here! I love you guys!!!
Holy Schikies! You mean, I don’t suck because I hit walls when going through the process of writing…its ok for it to be difficult…I am not incapable?..thank you Brian, this actually seems doable.
I cannot even begin to put to words what you all have put to words so well. I have run around the world from the process of writing only to find it when I went full circle. I didn’t know how I, a penciler, would construct a story when I especially knew what I couldn’t draw ( note to self, wave only fists when ranting right now, I cannot let them see the broken fingers I drew ). I love the topic of how things are overwritten because I keep looking for the “lowest common denominator” in the story equation so that I can even all of the issues and I still get lost. I am just glad to know that it is due in part to the fact that so much of what I have seen is just. My goal is for my stories to be epic, not simply over-inflated. I see now that I just need to make sure I make it clear.
Also, and this one is huge, I am so glad to hear that other believe that comparing yourself to the masters of the industry is ok too! I have done this for a very long time and though yes, it has its self-depricating drawbacks, it is also a very important part of the process to me. Chris, you spoke of the “xerox effect” or what I like to call, “progressive degradation” and told of its severe effect on oneself. I have experienced that and also the reverse of this BECAUSE I was obsessive about seeing the essence, inner workings and mentality in the art of my favorite artists.
I watched their work so heavily and so often that my subconscious could not help but assimilate it by osmosis alone. Now to this day, I still have comics that I will barely touch because I look at the art and covers as charities parts of my collections due to how I stared at them so long dissecting their pieces. Sorry, another rant.
This was a great episode Wing Leaderz! Thank you!
Quick side note!
If there are any wingers looking for an opportunity to write and draw your own short stories, please let me know. I am a project lead ( so is the awesome Sam Kirkman below ) on one of the latest anthology projects out of the illustration community, illopond.com! I am currently running a space themed book and I still have 3-4 (i think) of the 8 stories needed to create our round count that we like. We are still about 100 days out from the deadline and it only needs to be 8 pages so we are in a safe time period. Chris approved for me to post this here because I really wanted to open the opportunity to my fellow Wingerz!
Please let me know if you have any questions or would like to submit arts and story ideas for review. We just sent off the art files to the printers for the first “8 in Spaaace!” book to the printers and we are very excited!
Thank you all for considering and if you would like more information there are links below.
The project thread:
http://www.illopond.com/community/#/discussion/239/across-spaaace…again
A recent post from my blog with some of the art from the first Space anthology:
http://dutzart.blogspot.com/
Thanks again to Paper Wings and the Wingerz!!
I’d love to experiment with shorter form! I’d been eyeing the project over at illopond…
If I can grab some time in the next few weeks I may start working one together (you have no idea how many times I awfully typo’d the word “together” just now, haha!) and asking for some feedback on the IP forums. Don’t hold me to it just yet…! ;P
But it sounds fun and challenging!
Excellent Michael!
Yes it is both of those things and well worth it ( especially when you are finished, Ha ) so if you feel up to it then please join in a project! I sent you an email with info so just let me know if you have any questions!
Thank you Michael!!
Hi Derrick & Sam,
I would love the opportunity to contribute to the project with my fellow Wingers. How do I submit a story/art for review?
I think we compare ourselves to the greats because we remember the feeling we got watching that film in the cinema for the first time(Jurassic park as a kid, with my dad and brother), or reading through a great book(The Hobbit), and want to be able to do that, to give that experience back to because it feels amazing.
I’m glad that we have a community here who really value that, and don’t just dismiss story as something to pass time. I don’t think any of us would be doing what we do if it was not for those stories that meant something to us.
I think this may have been posted before, but here is a link to Ira Glass talking about that struggle of knowing how good you want to be and where you are right now.
http://vimeo.com/24715531
Hey Leigh thanks again for the linkage! I remember that one and will love to go bck and revisit it. WE have a couple of anthology projects running. Derricks 8 in Space and I’m heading our second Steampunk themed anthology. Please sign up at the http://illopond.com and take a look at what we’ve done. you can post a link to your submission in the forum or just throw out a story idea there. it’s been awfully quiet for awhile. it will be nice to see something new. Glad to have you here and there!
Ahoy Leigh!
Note: I have linked the main project information below. That will take you straight to the information you seek if you are interested in the space anthology. I did this so I wouldn’t cloud up PWP post with a huge block of copy.
Yep! Sam is running the second installment of Steampunk which is going to rock! I keep looking in on their progress and have to remind myself to hold back on jumping in on that project too! I have just the right amount of work on my table.
Sam, do you still have spots to fill in your book? That would be awesome to Wingers in there cuz you are awesome to work with!
I am currently running the second space themed anthology so it is your preference as to which genre you would like to look into.
I have instructions and general answers to basic questions in the project sheet which is linked in the project thread below. You can also post your idea to that same thread because it is the main discussion area to the project so it is where we work out ideas.
http://www.illopond.com/community/#/discussion/239/across-spaaace…again
I am excited that you all are interested in what is going on at the Illopond because it is a great place to activate the lessons you are learning here on the awesome Paper Wings site!!!
I’ve often said that style comes from one part inspiration one part study.
Meaning, if you’re looking at art sources that inspire you, they will inevitably influence you. But you balance that out by studying and drawing from life.
These two things merge, without intentional effort, to create a unique style. You don’t have to work on or seek out a style. It emerges. I think younger artists spend way too much time trying to create a style, which inevitably becomes what you’re describing above. If you study someone else’s style instead of studying life, that’s where the problems come in.
Such a great point! I have fallen into this real bad in the past and still have issues with this now.
I have a specific Thor piece that I was so excited about and drew mostly from my head and what I had accumulated from the many artists I enjoy so much and in the end, as much as people liked the piece, there were still some very real-world anatomy and visual/layout uneasiness to it. When some peers looked at it, they could tell the issues right away because of how their gut felt about the pose and angles of the legs and torso. I did not base it on a reference and to this day it is a reminder of one PWP most important lessons, starting with the proper foundation.
I learned a lot from that and I still want to improve upon this lesson because I feel that I have finally found my style, now I just need to make sure my clarity and accuracy are there.
Thank you Lora!
I knew this interview was going to be great. Did not expect the smackdown I got (in a very good way) and then the crests of inspiration that followed. Indeed, in a quick-and-easy digital world, the emphasis on quality and excellence has been lost. We really need to tear ourselves and our work up every so often and push towards a higher standard. As Brian says, many don’t want to climb the mountain. Unfortunately, they, too, sometimes reap the same rewards as others who are willing to do the work. Only time will differentiate the great from the merely adequate.
Being currently merely adequate myself, and having held back because of this discouraging status, I really needed the kick in the rear that this interview provided in the way it dared creative folk to strive for excellence and reach for greatness. Even if we never get there, we will at least fulfill and maybe exceed our potential, instead of languishing in comfortable mediocrity and thinking about what could’ve been.
My goal as an artist is: no matter how proud I am of the work I do today, to be totally disgusted with it in the future. 🙂
Thanks, Brian, Chris and Lora. I got my boots on and I’m ready to climb.
YES!
Wow! You guys ROCK!!
I recently purchase Invisible Ink and started to research Brian on the internets. I found a interview on vimeo and was nice to hear him, he is a teacher indeed. But your interview was way on another level. Thank you sooo much for the effort of finding him. I cant stop recomending his book AND paperwingspodcast to all my friends. I looking foward to buying “TGT”.
Thanks, Kahlil! So glad you liked the episode!
Hi guys! I’ve been listening to Paper Wings for a while now, and after hearing all the encouragement to come and make an introduction, here I am. I’m a graphic designer by profession, but harbor a secret dream of becoming an illustrator. Being 39 and pretty much an artistic beginner, I know that this is a completely unrealistic and impossible dream but I’ve ignored if for years and it won’t go away, so there you go. I hope to at least be able to one day make art that I like.
You guys have helped me to focus on the process and the path, rather than comparing myself to others — and since my father is a professional illustrator, and I grew up around great artists, that’s really hard. I loved the advice from the Inspiration Myths post to not to let your “want” and your “am” paralyze you. I also really enjoyed this interview with Brian and the interviews from C2E2 — all really inspiring!
Thanks so much for doing what you do, and thanks to all who make this such a great community. I’ll try to be more of a participant in the future!
Hey Bleu! Welcome welcome!
Well, it’s clear that you’re a really thoughtful guy, Bleu. I’m excited to hear your input on the Paper-Wings goings-on. Thanks so much for reaching out!
Good to see a fellow Chicagoan Paper Winger! Welcome!
Thanks for the welcome all! 🙂 And ditto, Chad, on seeing a fellow Chicagoan!
Hi, Wingerz! I decided to finally take Chris and Lora’s advice to stop being a wallflower and join this great community. I’m an illustrator, and although I’ve never ventured over to comics, all the Paper Wings conversations have been invaluable to me in my career. I’m so excited about finding my tribe here in the comments…very nice to meet everyone!
And thanks, as always, to Chris and Lora for another inspirational show. 🙂
Hey Ya Carolyn! Welcome to the Paper Wings Cadre! Nice work! If you hang around here long enough. Comics are bound to grow on ya. One things for sure though, it isn’t a prerequisite to hanging out here. Just a major interest amongst us.
Thanks for the warm welcome, Sam!
So glad to see you here, Carolyn!!!
Thanks for the encouragement 🙂
Ahoy Carolyn!
I love it when wallflowers grow off of the walls! Welcome to the fertile, conversation full earth of forum! We will lovingly wear you out with commentary so have fun!!
Thanks, Captain! I’m excited to get to know everyone. 🙂
Well, what can I add that hasn’t been said? Thanks again to Lora and Chris for pulling this off, but most of all thanks to Brian for being so cool as to giving us this opportunity!
I’d like to point out that I’ve been considering checking out Invisible Ink a few months ago when it was mentioned on these shores of the web but I haven’t read it yet. I’ve got a few book on my ‘to read’ pile, guess I’ll have to put this right at the top. A lot of things mentioned in the podcast just resonate so much with the path I’m currently on. It’s especially enlightening when writing isn’t your most natural side as a graphic novel creator as it is the case for me. It’s an aspect I enjoy tremendously but it’s not my strongest skill. This surprises me every time I think about it, guess it just confirms what can be gained by pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. On a personal level, I’d like to say that I do enjoy putting a lot of effort in character development as I see it as essential as story structure but I’m heading off in a different direction now.
Back to the matters at hand: This was truly a fascinating conversation, as it did feel a lot more like a conversation rather than a lecture or a plain interview. Thanks again Mr McDonald!
One last note: I was relieved to hear from Chris that he agreed that Steven Spielberg had occasionally made lesser movies 🙂 Not always getting things right generally means you’re exploring new territories and it’s reassuring that Mr Spielberg also makes it up as he goes along and is daring enough to accept the possibility of screwing up!
“Not always getting things right generally means you’re exploring new territories…”
Right on, Wouter.
And a lot of artists & visual storytellers DON’T EVER explore new territories BECAUSE they’re too afraid of “not always getting it right.”
AHEMahemahemHOllywoodAhem…
There’s a lot to be said about the state of Hollywood, indeed. It usually happens when too much money is involved, it happens in entertainment, in sports, everywhere. It’s probably why 95% of what hits the screens all looks the same. And that’s the biggest dilema in animation: how can you stay fresh and innovate when so much is at stake from a financial standpoint?
The advantage a lot us have as independent artists is we have nothing to loose -at least I don’t – at this point so we SHOULD be exploring. Unless you want to do the same thing over and over day after day but I believe they have different jobs for that…
I love how Brian points out that stories are all around us, and is essentially our main communication tool. Even down to the sentence level, you have a noun that goes through and action and affects a direct object. I know someone who disrupts conversations a lot with non-sequitur information or statements, and you can sense how it alters the ‘story flow’ of the conversation between everyone in the group and either shuts it down entirely or throws it ‘off’ such that someone in the group has to then take on the burden of jumpstarting the story again. That’s something that I have thought about a lot in terms of storytelling. Through experiencing many, many stories, we are wired to *expect* them to work in a certain way, to have specific components, composed with some sense of rhythm. And it’s when it doesn’t go according to plan, it feels ‘off.’ I feel like the Uncanny Valley also applies to writing as well. If the structure is there, but one aspect isn’t quite right, it affects people on a subconscious level. So using a ‘simple’ or ‘basic’ story structure that is familiar allows the viewer to focus on enjoying the work you have done rather than trying to figure out how to parse it.
There are many parallels to design here. The question of a story is not ‘what can you put in’, but ‘how much can you leave out and still have it communicate.’ Complicated is easy. Minimalism is hard.
I agree wholeheartedely with the problems of overtelling a story, which to me always seems like a sure sign of an artist or author’s lack of trust in their audience. In an earlier episode, I think it was Lora who talked about the writing of either Steinbeck or Hemingway (I can’t remember which!) where there was a single line of description and the rest was action to advance the story. Talk about minimalism at its best, and faith in the reader’s imagination to fill in the “holes.”
I think that was actually Brian McDonald in Invisible Ink. Did you read the book? I remember him talking about that.
P.S. It was Steinbeck.
Chad, that same thing jumped out at me when Brian said it: that we’re all *naturally* good at telling stories as human beings. And those of us who can’t are viewed as socially awkward, or outsiders.
When he said that it felt so true to me. We really are good at telling stories, it’s a natural part of what we do. And folks who can’t tell a story with a point are hard to converse with.
I run into that all the time in conversation. I’m prone to branching off into tangents, or sometimes telling a whole “story” only to realize near “the end” that I don’t even know what point I was trying to get at. It’s something I’m well aware (and leery) of. When I’m in introvert mode, most of the time I think it’s because of this—I prefer to not say much of anything at all for fear of bringing on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0
I know in the back of my mind that it’s not everybody’s (read: mostly anybody’s) cup of tea, but for some reason, when I’m being completely casual, I feel like verbalizing all the minutia and obscure connections running through my head.
This is why I try to write. In writing, we have to deliberate everything. If I’m writing something, an audience will be able to know that this is precisely what I meant to say, how I meant to say it. I won’t be tripping them up with nonsequitors and inorganic tangents. Hopefully.
One of these days I’d like to be to a point where my own mind doesn’t try to trip me up so I can actually communicate some more of my own personal musings, through traditional stories or even conversation! =D
It’s uplifting to hear someone you respect (Chris, in this instance), geek out about someone they look up to (like Mr. McDonald). It makes me feel better when I geek out about Paper Wings to other creators!
ha! Aw, shucks, thanks.
Yes, this was a fun interview to be in the room for, that was for sure.
First and foremost, thanks to Chris, Lora, and Brian for amazing tips and great insights to the creative process. I, like many posting comments this time around, have been following Paperwings for a bit but have come up this time to say hello and add their two cents to an equally engaging comments section. My name is eri, and I may actually be a bit of an anomaly in this community as I’m not seeking to become a full-fledged professional illustrator, comic book artists etc (but my art-hobby background is in drawing); I’m a linguist in training, but like many of you, I have a project that’s very close to my heart, and am working to eventuate it. The more I learn and think about story telling, the more I see parallels with essay writing or article writing (which is part of what I’m training to do). Both are, ultimately, ways of communicating clearly and concisely, and structure is absolutely crucial in doing this effectively. Simplicity and conciseness is key, so your point isn’t lost. Thinking about how you can be understood. These kinds of things that Brian in this interview raised, and which Chris and Lora have mentioned in earlier podcasts, are something that I will think about constantly when I get to that stage of production (still in the story structure building section). There was just so much in this interview (and previous podcasts) which have rung so true to me, I constantly relay them to my partner and inner circle of friends! I can’t remember right now which sections really struck me (there were many). Clearly, that just means I have to listen to it again 🙂
Lovely community here guys. I look forward to actually engaging in discussion and getting to know all of you, and your projects 🙂
A Linguist! *shakes hand* Well, actually I’m not so much of a linguist but a language “enthusiast” (as in talking about liking it but not doing the hard work! XD). I see you have a very flowy and colorful style… But pursuing what you like better is a good strategy. Best of luck on your project!
Haha thanks brushman~. I wouldn’t say I like Linguistics better than drawing, or story planning or anything like that. If only life were that simple! Thanks for the kind welcome. 🙂
I too am excited to see a fellow linguist! Well, actually you’re probably more linguist than me. I studied it in college, but with a goal of getting into ConLang, since I’m a fantasy writer/artist. 🙂 I enjoy inventing languages, but I feel like a giant faker. XD
Good luck getting your project together and off the ground~
Welcome, Eri! Chris, Brian and I actually talked a long time before the interview began recording about art for recreation, and this pervasive myth in our culture that if you want to be an artist you have to pursue not only professionalism but the highest echelon of it.
Welcome aboard. And to whatever level you decide to pursue your creative endeavors, we’re glad to have you.
Thanks Sly and Lora! Sly, inventing languages is awesome. I think t’s great that you’ll have some basic foundations in Linguistics to do it! Makes it all the more believable 🙂 Lora, its interesting you raise the point about hobby art since I’ve seen some other discussions following that vein circulating on the internet. Why can’t we all just be Renaissance people with multiple skills and interest? 😀 Thanks for the warm welcome guys.
Wow! Lots of new names stepping up to the plate! I like!
Sorry, guys, still mostly leeching off everybody else’s words of wisdom this week! It’s selfish on my part, but you all are awesome! =D (Good news is I was really productive and liberating on my workload this week!)
And again, really glad to see more of the community getting in on the action! Welcome, welcome!
This is one of the few episodes that has made me pause it, stop everything I’m doing, and think about my story. Don’t get me wrong, it’s great and always makes my stories stronger, but this is perhaps the first episode that has got me stumped.
My player is currently stopped at the 27 minute mark so I can get this off my chest, and hopefully the community can help me. There are two things in the podcast up to this point that make all the sense in the world (in fact, I have written about it in RL), but completely got me stuck when I tried to apply it to my story: the first is that, if something goes “wrong”, the audience needs to have seen how it was supposed to go right. The second is that people know what they’ve been through.
Near the beginning of my story (while the characters are still being introduced) this little conversation between two middle-school-aged kids.
Exchange Student: What’s name of the textbook for this class?
Other Student: Textbook? What the heck is a textbook?
Problem is, practically no one has been through this. They either spent their whole lives in the “textbook” world or the “non-textbook” world. The former group doesn’t really worry me; they will see the situation from the exchange student’s point of view and understand that this is not what’s “supposed” to happen. Yet I know I will have readers in the latter group, and I don’t know how to make the point to them.
What I came up with was to introduce the exchange student as reading a textbook, but this doesn’t make sense with the story (he’s not supposed to look like a nerd, and he’s not supposed to know what textbook he should be using). So I’m wondering if any of you could come up with a better solution
Hi – I’d just to quickly introduce myself to the community as this is my first post to Paper Wings. I’m from the UK and am working as a professional freelance comic book colourist, I have aspirations to eventually move into concept art but this is an end goal very much farther down the road.
I just wanted to say a massive thanks to Chris and Lora for a very illuminating and inspirational 3 weeks of almost non-stop podcast listening alongside my work. I started out with Chris’ Artcast and have now listened to all of the audio episodes on both that site and on Paper Wings… Any more inspiration and knowledge fighting for sorting in my brain and I think I’d need to sleep for a week!
I’ve been waiting to engage with the community until I caught up & am very excited about the possibilities you guys are exploring with this project, and with the huge wealth of combined knowledge and information that’s being shared.
I haven’t even had a chance to start on the blog posts and video episodes yet (audio casts are much easier for me to get along with as they don’t distract me from my generally hectic schedule) but I hope to start combing my way through these and the wingers comments soon!
Thanks for all the podcasts guys (I’d never even considered listening to them before the Artcast and now I’m hooked!), this last one was incredibly informative and I plan on buying both of Brian’s books for both myself and one of my comic book writer friends.
I look forward to engaging with this unique community that you’re building and hopefully contributing in my own little way.
Welcome, Owen!! Between Chris Oatley.com for the concept work and Paper Wings here for your comic needs, we’re glad you found us!
That’s quite a lot of content in such a short time. We sure are glad you found us. Welcome to the Wingerz!
I’m a new follower, so I’m playing catch-up and getting in on all the older posts. Just wanted to say though, I was really amused when you were talking about being clear and how people got this weird idea into their heads that being clear was somehow “wrong”.
I’m a fine arts student and a while back I was showing my painting lecturer some copies of ImagineFX Magazines. And he said something along the lines of, “These are really nice, but this is fine arts, so you mustn’t get too illustrative.”
IE. Don’t be too clear. The more obscure you are, the better fine artist you are. Yet, now that I’ve been doing this for a while, I have to ask, what on earth is the point of being this amazing artist with all these deep messages to convey if the majority of people aren’t ever going to understand it?
I’m not sure that I’ll ever get an answer to that one.
This ones one of my favorite points in the interview. Sometimes, teachers just aren’t right. Or, they have a different agenda. It’s crazy to me and Chris how many people in the art world write off Norman Rockwell. His skill and ability to convey a story unmistakably is unparalleled. So he got a paycheck for his work, does that automatically disqualify him?
For some people it does. That is absurd.
I don’t really think its about the money factor, yes “commercial artist” is a phrase often said in a condescending tone, but that doesn’t seem to be the actual “problem”. It’s because he’s too obvious. “How dare you say what you want to say by saying exactly what you want to say!”
If you’re not using some sort of obscure metaphor, you obviously haven’t thought long enough on the matter. You’re not being an “intellectual”.
Take for example, a recent painting of my dear country’s president. He’s a polygamist. Currently has four wives, has been married 6 times. Has over 20 children. Was in the news a while back for sleeping with an HIV positive woman… basically, his wonderfully absurd sex life is public knowledge. Somebody painted him with his penis sticking out. “Mr pres can’t keep it in his pants” kind of thing. Absolutely huge uproar about it. Everybody clearly understanding what the painting implied. It went so far as to be vandalised by ruling party supporters.
Yet, every critique I read on the piece mentioned somewhere that it wasn’t a particularly good painting.
I don’t know so much about that. I think it did a great job of saying exactly what it wanted to say in the clearest possible manner and the reaction it got from the public kind of proves that.
People are afraid of “simple” because they confuse it with easy, but if you actually try to say something in a clear and simple way, you start to realise that it’s really difficult to pull off.
This is the first paper wings podcast I have heard. It was fascinating, your guest was brilliant, listening convinced me I need Brian’s book.
You won’t be disappointed!
And welcome to Paper Wings!
Hey there. I just finished Invisible Ink. Great read! Much better than Robert McKee!
You guys deserve like a medal or something. This podcast is topnotch… inspires me in so many ways! Thank you!
I don’t know if there is a time limit on conversations here (no dates on any of the posts, but the URL indicates this was posted in May), but I have caught up with the archive of Paper Wings podcasts as of now, and finally feel like I can step into the comment sections and introduce myself.
My name is Christina Major. I’ve also gone by Delphina for an awfully long time on the internet. I work as a graphic designer, and I quit my in-house day job in Burbank (Hi Chris!) in March to start my own freelance graphic design business. I did this as an opening: it gave me more power to take the clients that I wanted, it freed up my schedule to work on my webcomic, Sombulus (www.sombulus.com), and the flexibility to help my husband in his business endeavors as a board game designer.
But learning to make my own schedule and accomplish personal goals that aren’t profitable RIGHT NOW is tricky. I’ve found that one of the best ways to keep me on task when I’m drawing at the computer is to have some sort of audio narrative to lose myself in while I work, whether it’s audiobooks or podcasts. Paper Wings is the first time I’ve heard anyone make a dedicated effort to talk about webcomics like mine. Not “digitally releasing” your superhero comic for a subscription fee, not gag-a-day comics that ultimately become receptacles for t-shirt sales, both of which were the extent of conversation about webcomics at Comic-Con in 2009-2010, and many other podcasts I’ve dipped my toes into. For the first time, it actually felt like someone else was talking about the story I liked to read, and the story I was writing with my webcomic. It quickly earned my attention and respect!
I had a pretty great Sombulus-related breakthrough in the night, so at 4am, I gave up trying to sleep and wrote it down. Then I listened to this episode while I worked on a page for next week. It was the last episode in my queue (I listened to the July one first before I decided I needed to start from the beginning).
If I thought the other episodes were speaking to me, the question about “Can you do anything about a long-form webcomic with a weak beginning after you’ve already started it?” sat down in the stool in my office and grabbed me by the shoulders and said “YOU, CHRISTINA MAJOR. I AM SPEAKING TO YOU.” Because I asked myself that question at 4am, and my answer was this: I hope that like my characters, I am growing and changing and becoming a better storyteller, and people will find that as compelling and interesting as the story itself.
Anyway, I’m sure you’ll see me around. Thank you for this amazing wellspring of cross-genre insight. =)
I’m speechless, Mr. McDonald’s interview was so illuminating. I would definitely attend his class if I were in the US. I’m ordering his book now!
Having listened to this multiple times now, I thought I’d mention that I’ve purchased and read both “Invisible Ink” and “Golden Theme” as a direct result of this interview.
Thanks for introducing me to Brian! It has helped more than you’ll know.
That makes at least two of us 🙂
On the subject of how to fix or find a theme in a long-form story already underway, there’s a couple chapters in the manga “Bakuman” about that (it’s a comic about the manga magazine industry). They advised going through your old chapter to find foreshadowing you didn’t realize you had included. Use the clues you intuited into your story and try to find a resonant way of expounding on the themes you established early on without necessarily realizing. (The characters acknowledge in a shorter story they start afterward, that this time they want to start with an ending in mind so that every chapter feels relevant)
Excellent interview. Thank you both for making it happen. I feel inspired to write and clearer on how to do so.
I found the Paper Wings podcast when I was Googling “theme” to find exercises to help me hone the theme for my first novel. I binge listened all weekend after getting both Brian’s books. Chris and Lora I am staggered by your generosity of spirit. I’m almost 51 years old and just decided I wanted to be an artist (writer) at 50. I’m so thankful for finding you. Now I know I can do this. I am not on Facebook where I understand you have more community, but hopefully can get involved a bit here. You two are so kind. Thank you for giving me my Paper Wings!
Wow! This is just so inspiring. I have never felt so excited about not being as good at my art. Brian’s comments on struggling and the responses he gives to climbing the mountain are so good, I have trouble finding the words to describe how they inspired me. Thanks for such an awesome interview! I’m all geared up to climb the mountain now!