“You’re not a professional because somebody pays you to draw. You have to turn your mind toward professionalism.”
In this episode, we interview one of Chris’ best buddies in the industry – Justin Copeland – storyboard artist for Marvel Studios.
Justin is working on the new Avengers cartoon for Disney XD.
He tells us the story of his transition to a successful career in animation after struggling in comics for a a few years.
He talks about the differences between working in comics and working in animation and explains why all comics artists should, at some point, learn to storyboard for animation.
“You’re not a professional because somebody pays you to draw.”
He gives some fascinating “behind the scenes” insight into the production of animated, action TV shows and tells some honest stories from his own life that will help to ease the minds of comics creators who hope to become storyboard artists. …right before he lays the smack down.
He shares his passion for filmmaking, SketchUp and the production process and gets Chris so revved up he almost explodes.
“I’m not just drawing for my director or our producers or Jeph Loeb… I’m drawing for our audience.”
Links:
Justin’s deviantArt
Follow Justin on Twitter
Resources:
Get “Timing For Animation” and “The Illusion Of Life”
Get “Framed Ink”
A good quote to go along with Copeland’s and one that get’s thrown around our studio a lot, comes from wrestling and goes soemthing like: “There are professionals, and there are amatuers collecting pay.”
Really loved that bit about the best way to take a crit. I was working on a pitch a few weeks back with a writer who has a lot more credentials than I, and after sussing out the pitch pages we got to the cover. He let me take a blind run at it to see what came out and shortly after I got an email that started with the line “Hey man, I hope I don’t piss you off or anything…” and then gave a very blunt, but fair list of reasons he wasn’t feeling the cover I sent in.
Because it’s our first time working together he was very deferential, didn’t want to bruise my ego, but then he’s done published comics before, and the man knows what he wants on the page. So when I responded I made sure to let him know that if he had a crit I wanted to hear it, and that I wouldn’t be taking it personally. What ended up happening was we scrapped my entire cover idea, went with something totally different (different shot, color scheme, composition, everything), much more directed by my writer, and we came out with an image we both liked a lot better.
Moral of the story? Crits are like art vegetables. Nobody craves broccoli, but the last thing you want is art scurvy.
I crave broccoli, Jake. I really do.
You are a strange, strange man. But you take my meaning none the less 😉
I’m also a fan of spinach. Analogy is well-put though!
Thanks for another great podcast. I am finishing up my first comic in the next few weeks and now I am worried about not being big enough. Justin could just be a comic book motivational speaker, his excitement in his work is inspirational.
Justin, if you ever went to Chicago Six Flags theme park in ’05 or ’06 and saw a magic show, it would have been me. Seems to be a lot of people originally from the Midwest on this podcast.
-Jason Love
I didn’t mean this to be a reply, but no way to un click the reply button now.
I don’t think I’d like to be the amateur who just collects pay – I want to progress as an artistic professional. I loved his attitudes and tips for growth – I’m glad to hear about his “growing pains” too – we all bleed. I actually have thought and studied a lot about storyboarding as I’ve been working in animation, and I love it….I can relate to his discussions on speed – I want to make pretty drawings and it slows me down. But I’ve noticed that the more sketching I do, the better my quick drawings come out.
By the way wingers, Misfit Supers is now released and getting positive reviews at http://scottwiser.com/MisfitSupers , This book was a huge growing experience for me (especially now that I’m hearing peoples thoughts) and I have big plans for progress toward a new project!
I think I fianlly signed up properly to your website! let me know if i stuffed it up again!
Great to have a new podcast. I always get excited and want to make comics as soon as I listen to an episode.
Being an animator and comic artist I think the two can really go well together. It takes awhile to get that wrapped around ones head at first. I remember my first set of comic pages that I tried to do. It was like I threw everything I knew about animation out the window and just thought, “I have to make this look like Marvel or DC”. It was way over rendered and had no life to it. Then I asked myself, “Why don’t you do it the way you would as an animator?” Start simple, focus on the energy of the pose and story before you start rendering all those muscles and veins. I wondered why there was a disconnect there at the beginning.
Great episode as always.
Wow, it’s always great to have a new podcast…and this one packs a wallop!
It comes at a great time for me, I am trying to expand my comics/storyboard portfolio and Justin gave some great insider’s tips. Also, it is coincidental that I live in Chicago with dreams of moving to California some day to work for a studio…so it was extra inspiring to hear about someone who has done it, who is “living the dream”!
I am not working at Walmart or Home Depot yet, my job is sort of creative but not really. However I am taking to heart the advice about working hard in my off hours to improve my portfolio, and to improve my professionalism, so that I can some day spend my 40-60 hours on work that actually inspires and excites me!
Also, Framed Ink is so good. It really improved my visual storytelling, for comics, and really, all of my illustration. Thanks for recommending a book on timing as well, I feel that I haven’t considered it up to this point and have just been “winging it” LOL sorry…..
In conclusion, this PWP is made of Awesome!
This was such a heartening discussion! While I was listening, I was toying with taking a bookcover job that wasn’t exactly my cuppa and didn’t pay great and it helped me make up my mind. Follow what you love and what you’re good at. Make those tough choices. You guys are awesome. 😀
Man, sometimes I think you guys are telepathic. This is not the first podcast (or article) that’s directly faced issues that I’ve had as a freelance comicker (who is slowly transitioning into storyboards). I just wanted to say, THANK YOU SO MUCH for this, and all the rest of the amazing resources you guys provide. 🙂 It’s wonderful to have y’all back and I’m looking forward to more.
I’m bummed now that I can’t make it down to CTNX to drop by and say hi (and share my appreciation in person). Well….maybe I can make the drive (5 hours isn’t too long, haha)? I hope you have fun, though.
Take care, all. 🙂
Great interview! Nice to see you guys are back podcasting again.
Jeff
I really agree with the idea that Lora put out there – animation is a great education (though not for everyone) in learning how to draw and apply film principles to your work that isn’t necessarily animation. Other than storyboaring, animation also taught me to draw fast, to throw down ideas quickly and then go back and refine things that are worth the time.
I find that my sketches turn out more nicely when I’m just doing a loose warm up, or sitting down to something fast to relieve stress, it’s really surprising. I find when I nitpick a drawing or plan it out too much it ends up being too stiff and doesn’t even really look like it’s “my style” anymore.
This was a great episode to ramp up to CTN Ex. I really enjoyed Justin talking about his experience with portfolio review. It’s comforting to know that even the people who have “made it” have the same feelings that the rest of us do. Looking forward to meeting you all THIS WEEKEND EEK! Thanks for the great post.
I took some time to listen to this while working on page layouts. First up, glad to have you both back.
There was so much to the podcast that I’ll probably have to listen to it again, but there were two items that I took out of it. One item was Justin and Lora’s conversation re: expressions and doing what the industry doesn’t do. I’ve often considered myself more a webcomic reader than a standard comic reader (the only exception to this rule is the always-good “Atomic Robo”), and this conversation cuts to the heart of why that is the case. There are several comics out on the web where the creators actually took time to understand expressions, either from an animation perspective or an acting perspective, and they look and feel alive. They work in ways current print comics don’t. I’m not sure how well I can manage it, but it’s a goal I want to set for myself with my comics. Thank you for showing me that this is a good goal to aim for, both personally and professionally.
The other item is with regards to Sketchup. I’ve been using sketchup to design the backgrounds for “Icefall”, but I found that I was overthinking the design work. After producing one very-detailed room, I found I’d burned myself out. So I’m now approaching the models in the same way Justin mentions: using them as a reference only. When pencilling my first page this past weekend, I found that just having the reference was enough to keep my perspective in line (uh, pun not intended).
I disagree with Justin on his “it’s just numbers” statement, though. Perhaps it’s because I have something of a engineering background and a lifelong love of science, but I’ve found numbers help me a LOT in the drawing process. Case in point; in the past I’ve been guilty of drawing characters all at the same height. In my work on “Icefall”, I’ve tried to alter this, but in addition to a character height sheet, which helps, I also know their actual heights to the centimeter, which also helps when it comes to putting a character in a background, and making sure I scale them right the first time. There are a number of other ways that knowing the numbers has helped me, both in the art *and* the writing of “Icefall”.
Of course, it’s possible I misunderstood Justin’s statement.
But those are the take-home messages I got from the podcast. I’ll be listening to it again, as I’m sure there was more to learn from it. Thank you, Chris and Lora, and thank you Justin, for your time and efforts.
Hey Andrew!
I’m glad that you enjoyed the podcast. I’m sorry this reply is so long in coming. I’d totally forgot that you guys could leave comments down here. Anywho, let’s start with the expressions comment: Yeah, expressions are kind of hard. You actually have to put yourself into the mind of your character, who is actually a 2d line drawing that doesn’t exist. But this is how it helped me, it’s not the character that’s acting, it’s me! What am I feeling, that I want this character to portray? And then I try to nail it. It usually takes about 5 tries to get each expression right. No joke…
Sketchup is great! It’s one of the best tools ever! And yes, I’m glad that you switched it up, and used it as reference. LIght boxing a background is cool too, but I think that it takes more work to make it look original. As for the numbers comment, what I meant was that skecthup is made of binary numbers, and doesn’t really exist in the actual world (in a sense. I mean, yeah, sketchup is real, but the world that we create in sketchup is not real.) The Perspective is not real, it’s based on numbers, as nothing can actually truly replicate what only our eye’s and minds can see. So in that sense, it’s almost too perfect! I really don’t know how else to explain it. It has this precision to it that throws the viewer off. My goal when I’m creating a world for my characters is to keep the story moving forward, not for you to stop and wonder what’s up with my bg’s, why do they look so weird? Ya know?
Keep up the good work, and keep listening!
I’m not an animator . . . or even remotely an artist . . . but I still got a lot out of this interview! In particular, I liked hearing how Justin didn’t get discouraged after his comic book was canceled. I’ve had a lot of successes with seemed to lead to nowhere, but this interview really put it all into perspective!
I really enjoyed hearing Justin talk about the relationship between animation and comics, the sequence of movement vs. the single iconic image, etc. I think a lot of comics artists are animation buffs too…I took a couple of very introductory classes in college, and it’s always been in the back of my mind as something I’d like to pursue further. Hearing his story, and his candid assessment of the things he did right and wrong along the way, was definitely inspirational.
I’ve been listening to some other podcasts and vidcasts lately, and I have to say, it really makes me appreciate how well you guys put your show together, especially the interviews. You keep things fun and conversational, but you also keep it focused and you have a real knack for drawing out great insights from your guests. It’s great to have you back!
Thanks for another great podcast. I am finishing up my first comic in the next few weeks and now I am worried about not being big enough. Justin could just be a comic book motivational speaker, his excitement in his work is inspirational.
Justin, if you ever went to Chicago Six Flags theme park in ’05 or ’06 and saw a magic show, it would have been me. Seems to be a lot of people originally from the Midwest on this podcast.
-Jason Love
…man, I haven’t been to Six Flags in ages! Thank you for the super kind comments. I hope that you remain inspired! I have some down days with comic book work, but I tried never to stay down. Movement is always better, and who knows, there could be something bigger at work!
Another fantastic interview, thank you Lora and Chris. And thank you Justin!
It’s great to have you back.
It was interesting to hear Justin’s thoughts on storyboards vs. comics. I also have a “cinematic” brain and I’ve thought for a while that I should try my hand at storyboarding. Now I am inspired to do so.
Not sure if someone else brought this up, but is this podcast suppose to be PWP#22?
Hey all
marcus rocco here (www.roccodoestheastro.blogspot.com) i have a webcomic coming out early march and threw word of mouth heard of this site and podcast. this was my 1st rodeo with paperwings and im hooked! it was awesome way more insite then i ever would of thought .. so basicly i just downloaded the whole backlog to my phone and i cant wait to listen to them all
thanks i look foward to checking out everyone’s comics i can becuase comics are my jam
For the past 5 years I’ve had a happy career as a designer for Nike, but have long wanted to pursue being a storyboard artist. I have finally made the transition and have this podcast to thank. Thank you! All of your talks are very helpful. I’d very much like to meet all of you some day, and possibly work as your storyboard artist 🙂
Thanks a ton for that comment Mark! I pride myself in changing the careers of many of my friends, and I’m happy to see the trend continue! What are you boarding on now? And that Nike discount had to be sweet! I’m sorry to see it go…
I remember one night in the Westin after one of the days at Heroes Con. It was you, Kweli (your brother, two brothers?), Keron Grant, Sanford Greene, Dexter Vines, Ed McGuiness, Lesean Thomas and Robin Mitchell. I was with my boys, Chuck Goubile, Stacy Robinson and Jan-Michael Franklin. I mostly sat in the corner and marveled at the talent. I was a fan before and still am. Good insight into the industry. I’d love to move into storyboarding and animation eventually, God willing and the crrek don’t rise.