Leonardo Da Vinci was a LOSER.
This radical proposition was so intriguing, I had no choice but to click “Play.”
What followed was a brilliant video about the nature of artistic mastery and how the digital culture is actually making it more difficult to pursue.
With the authenticity of Ken Burns and the roguish efficiency of the Freakonomics authors, Adam Westbrook’s “Delve Video Essays” inspire us to explore the depths of our craft, our culture and ourselves.
In today’s interview, Adam and I discuss the dangers of your creative comfort zone, facing our fear of failure, how to communicate complex ideas in clear and compelling ways and what’s to love about the struggles of storytelling…
Watch ‘The Long Game’ Series:
Listen To My Interview With Adam Westbrook (Part 1):
Read the transcript for this episode here.
More From Adam Westbrook:
Read Inside The Story Magazine
Links Mentioned:
Read about the vagaries of the writing process in James Cameron’s introduction to his script treatment for Strange Days
Read Turning Pro by Steven Pressfield
Join The Conversation!
Adam and I talked about how the comfort zone can also be the danger zone for creative people.
When Adam started the Delve project he left his career as a radio journalist and moved to Paris.
You certainly don’t have to do something that radical right now. What is one new project, routine or decision you could introduce to help shake things up in 2015?
I loved this episode! The most interesting idea for me was that you don’t need to be an expert to share what you’re learning. I’m always under the impression that I have nothing valuable to share because there are already others out there with more knowledge than me.
Thanks Chris and Adam for encouraging me to share what I’m learning and learn more through doing so!
Kylie, everyone has their own set of skills, experiences and ideas. Please share them, as you might have learned something that someone else needs. 🙂 You learn heaps more when you`re learning together.
I’m with Henrike on this one, Kylie! Don’t doubt that what you have learned is useful. Even those who have ‘more knowledge’ than you don’t have the knowledge the same way you have it. Don’t be afraid to share! 🙂
Yes, Kylie! Sharing knowledge is fun, inspiring and a challenging assessment of how well you understand something. Thanks for writing! Keep sharing!
Thanks so much, everyone!
Thanks Kylie! It’s not just about how much you know, but how curious you are and how well you can help other people get excited too.
Thanks again Adam. Your videos are brilliant!
One thing I took away from Sycra Yasin was when he said in one of his YT videos was that, “you only need to be better then the person you’re teaching”.
He was referencing some RPG in that if you’re a level 1 you don’t need to learn from a level 99, a level 2 or 3 is perfectly fine.
I love Sycra. Although I don’t think you even have to be “better” than someone to teach them.
“In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert’s there are few.” – Zen Master Shunryo Suzuki
The wisest teachers I know are constantly learning from their students.
However, I would definitely share Sycra’s opinion when trying to decide who to PAY to teach me something.
I loved watching the Delve series Adam! Thanks for making them! It`s really encouraging to hear about the difficult years.
What also struck me about this episode is the willingness to be uncomfortable in the creative process. Being patient. Taking an idea even further and diving even deeper into the process. Being comfortable with not knowing everything and not having a clear idea yet. I`m currently learning this.
I made this discovery when starting character design for my current comic project. I was used to drawing and having a character and go from there with the story. For my current story I started with story and theme and after that I had to figure out what these characters looked like. I had a hard time getting to the final design on some of them. For a while it just didn`t feel right and I was worried that I`d never be able to get the character on paper how I wanted him/her. Until I saw a behind the scenes video of Beauty and the Beast and Glen Keane talked about the design process for the Beast character. He said it took him months to arrive at what we now see on the screen. That encouraged me and made me continue searching. I have now learned to trust the process, that eventually something will come out that does feel right. I even enjoy it now. It`s like walking through a crowd of people and searching for a familiar face. And it`s great when you start to notice some things in the design start to go to the point you want to arrive at. Until you have your character and you can say: “there you are!” That`s a great feeling.
My “change” for 2015 is living with the phrase “less is more” in mind. Cutting back on social media time, avoiding useless and time consuming sidetracks and “just starting” more instead of planning a lot but not starting.
Great stuff, Henrike! Good luck with your 2015 goals!
Hi Henrike, I love those 2015 goals – they’re on my list every year too (although I don’t always succeed!)
Trusting the process was such a milestone realisation for me..if I can I don’t just want to accept the ‘strange days’ at the start of a project, I want to find a way to *enjoy* them too. If I can do that then I’ll feel like I’m closer to doing it right.
But it’s harder and harder with our online lives, when we see other people publishing their latest project seemingly constantly, to want to rush to join them. I still have to fight myself to remember that’s not the point! Thanks for listening.
Hello Adam,
this is a very good reminder for me to stay focussed on my goals to not look at other people’s dreams and ideas too often, or for too long. It seems to be in our nature to compare ideas with one another, or anything we do in general.
Thank you for being a part of the episode. I will check out more of what you have created.
I am fascinated by the thought that even great ideas/stories on the internet can take years and years to get noticed. So there’s really no need to worry and a great need for patience. Not that this is new to me, but I like the way Adam articulates it.
This interview hit a lot of sweet spots for where I am right now. I will be referring to it A LOT. The part about sitting down and writing out exactly what needs to be done when you have ninety minutes to work. I thought I did that… but now I realize, even though I have the story written, I don’t have a great plan.
I like the idea of chipping away at an idea and shenagling with it until it is just right.
In 2015… I have a gut feeling it’s going to be a pivotal, uncomfortable, groundbreaking year for me. There’s something, some gears are turning. I don’t think I’m ready for my Paris move yet. But who knows.
Thanks for the wonderful words of wisdom and thoughtful conversation Chris and Adam! Great way to start a Tuesday morning!
I, too, believe that 2015 is going to be a pivotal year for you, Britny! Here’s to another!
“In 2015… I have a gut feeling it’s going to be a pivotal, uncomfortable, groundbreaking year for me.” << Yes! I love this feeling 🙂
I remember a year ago, when I was working on the first video essay, with no idea how it was going to turn out, I made a very private decision that whatever happened, I was going to make them for at least one year. Even if no-one watched them, I was going to keep making them, because that was the contract I made with myself. I think it's one of the reasons it has worked so far: that decision instantly removed any self doubting bargaining I would have inevitably done otherwise!
Chris – Haha! Well, with Painting Drama, everything’s pivotal! Literally! On the color wheel!
Adam – Thank you for sharing that. I love how imagining ‘the worst possible outcome’ really opens up the realm of failure. Making the personal decision to create, no matter the consequences, like you said, is a very very powerful way to think. Not only does it eliminate self doubt, but it also eliminates distractions, cop outs, and fear. You make like Nike and just do it. And it happens. And the world will never be the same.
Thank you so much for the essays. Thank you for fighting off doubt and making that private decision to continue, no matter what. Your Da Vinci videos resulted in a positive paradigm shift in my life. (Chris, you too, sensei.) You both are doing a tremendous amount of good in this world. So thank you.
Thank you, Britny. I can’t wait to see what happens with you and the rest of the Painting Drama 2 students this January!!! #mwahahahaaa
Wow, what an insightful video!!!
Indeed. Adam is brilliant!
there is a simple way to do a historical documentary: the bbc (or some other british company) did it about twenty years ago: they sent a tv crew to report live from the battle of Culloden, interview the generals, follow the soldiers (journalists got wounded!), yes they pretended tv existed then and was a normal thing, they had actors and troops and you really felt like you saw the battle happening, the horror, the suspens, the consequences, real life. Perhaps you should try that with some historical reconstitution group, they are generally totally dedicated and very knowledgeable. thanks for the videos essays!
Oh that’s a great idea! Thanks for sharing, mc!
To shake things up for next year, I will go for redesigning my characters and certain stuff besides further plot development. As my characters and ideas are about 3 years old, and some of them just appeared in 2014 the more my plot developes, I think it will be best to look at the things that once have been less clear, and can now actually reach a new level regarding design decisions.
With that being said I will have my characters change their approach pretty early in the story, so it doesn’t feel like having to “redo” things. I always approached things “together” with the characters that yet have to figure out what their meaning of existing in that world means for them. As I go forward and uncover secrets, new places and events, all the influences will result in new designs, which will help me to feel like discovering something new within what I have already found.
Example: I know lots of my characters, but giving them new approaches (that still work within the story’s framework) and having them exploring new solutions, for whatever case they have to go through, feels like regaining interest in “old” events and parts of the story.
Kinda like what I felt when playing The Legend of Zelda – Majora’s Mask. Due to the 3 days timelimit within the game, each time one enters the same area still felt interesting and one would have to micromanage each step, knowing that one will always be able to get back to the same events to try something new.
I hope this example makes sense.
Great episode, definitely makes me wanting to stay persistent without blocking the way for new approaches of what is already there.
Wow, we’re facing the same storytelling challenges right now, David. Man, I love hearing about your process. Thank you so much for sharing!
I’m glad to see that so many people actually struggle with- or experience the same issues within their development steps. It’s very inspiring to listen (and read) to everyone’s experiences and solutions.
I am feeling that 2015 is meant for the redesigns and to flesh out what I already have done (designs, writing, possible ideas to be added into the world I am building). I will tell you how it’s doing.
Sometimes I just feel like starting to write the chapters though, but I can predict that I would hit a wall with running forward that blindly.
Micromanagement really helps and I have already waited for about 3 years, carefully building things up. So I can wait a little longer before starting to write the chapters. I want to start with the scripts of the chapters in summer 2015.
Great podcast and I loved the Delve video.
The podcast reminded me I really need to think about my goals and routines for 2015!
Thanks, Mitch! If you make a plan for 2015, please let us know about it!
Ah I think I know my plan! I recently decided I want to focus more on character design and on 2 feb I start with a gesture drawing course from schoolism. So I will do my best to get better at gestures. Besides that I want to keep using the time in the train for getting to work to do study’s of disney classics and also more study’s from photo’s. At the end of 2015 I want to have a good character design portfolio with lots of variation, story and emotion in it. So that will be my main focus in my spare time. (Thinking of going to CTN next year, would be great for feedback on my portfolio) Besides that I’ll try to share more and have fun while drawing!
And of course keep listening to the artcast!
I love how Chris has waited until just the perfect time to publish this!
The timing was 100% planned. It had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I lack discipline and always try to take on too many projects at one time. 😉
Man, what a great perspective. Very refreshing to hear someone bring up and focus on all those years that people endured not being successful while they perfected their craft. I am personally a late starter on the art world, I didn’t start trying to improve my drawing ability until I was 33 years old. Well, now I am 34… I have given myself at least 5 years or so of just studying before I think I will personally be in a position to start looking for any kind of work or put out all the ideas I have in any sort of quality manner. I figured in another 5 years of just doing that before I hope of any kind of “big” break. My big break is to just be able to quit the day job and earn enough money through art in some fashion. That puts me at 43 years old…
Listening to this AC has really helped remind myself that I am on the right track. I started right from the beginning trying to maintain a realistic mind set and approach to this.
Amateurs tweet, Pros work is one of the best things I think I could have ever heard!
Very inspirational AC, thanks Chris!
I’m excited to think about all the wisdom and experience you will bring to your art. That five year window you’ve given yourself to study and learn will save you a lot of anxiety as well 🙂
I certainly hope so 🙂
And I just subscribed to your YT channel, looking forward to your future endeavors!
The tidbit of info that really stuck out to me, that sort of blew my mind a bit, was changing the way to view the traditional 3 act structure of a story.
Instead of:
Beginning,
Middle,
End.
View it as:
Introduce conflict,
Heighten conflict,
Resolve conflict.
I really dug that.
It’s totally changed how I design my stories too, one of my favourite realisations of this year 🙂
Amazing that it’s so simple, no less memorable and yet so much more effective…
Great podcast guys! As always, it is great to hear from other creatives on a topic I can really relate to. Your insight and wisdom is truly appreciated.
I will be listening for the latest Delve updates.
Thanks,
Tim
Thanks, Tim! We had a blast! Word on the street is that a new Delve video is right around the corner!
The perfect cup of tea when the pressure of time wears on you. Brilliant post and interview. Definitely needed this. 17 years, here we come! lol
Great to hear, Gregory! Yes! Don’t give up!
I’ve seen the Da Vinci videos before and they definitely went a long way into changing the outlook I had on my career when I graduated art school – jobless and lost. (I first heard about them through OA back then too) I continue to spread them around to everyone I know who feels like I did then – who just need to hear it, validation if you will, that it’s okay and necessary to invest more time in something before giving up if they really love it.
I think it’s an exciting, scary challenge to uproot from comfortable surroundings, so I can certainly relate with Adam. Ever since I lived for a time in Japan (I didn’t know the language either!) I’ve gotten a similar kind of wanderlust. About every 3-5 years I’ve just needed to go places, change scenery, try something different. I’m overdue at this point – one of the many reasons why I feel I need to just get up and go in 2015.
It’s not a world changing shift – just a few states away. I don’t have as much as I would like saved. I may have to get another crummy cube job for a while. I do worry about a lot of things and try to do as much research as I can so I know all my options/have a hodge-podge map of sorts, but it’s comforting to look back and think “Well…at least I’ll be able to read the street signs and won’t get horribly lost.”
And so what if I got lost? One of the funnest, most triumphant moments I had in Japan was when I was riding my bike home from school – by myself for the first time – and took a wrong turn. I wandered neighborhoods for half an hour before finding my home. Yes, there was panic. But I also discovered a vending machine with shoe laces and green tea hidden in a hedgerow. How cool is that?? I still got home in the end, no harm done.
I also have all the feels for getting that proof of concept out there and rolling – that upcoming move being a driving deadline of a sort to Get Ready, Go! In the last few months I’ve been building, planning, arranging things so I can roll in a couple weeks and be well on my way by the move, so hopefully the transition is smoother. And I dove in and displayed at CTN and will do so again next year, so there’s no turning back now!
It definitely takes effort for me to stay in that realm of not-knowing…but when I do get into it, I’ll be almost OCD about it – “Oh, that’s nice, but if I do another one combining those two. No just one more like that…No more like this.” It’s almost just as hard pulling out of it again. Lol
Thank you Adam and Chris for sharing this podcast today – It was one I definitely need to hear at this moment. I’m looking forward to part two!! 😀
What an awesome story!
You’re amazing, Beki. I’m excited about seeing your career develop over the next year. I anticipate great things.
Go Beki! I am positive all your artist gambles are going to pay-off!
Hey Chris, Great interview!
I found the part about ‘working off of older historical or cultural stories’ an interesting topic. I know for me its very easy to get lost in the planning stages if I try to get too ambitious & I’ll put all my creative energy on parts of the project I’m less interested in. On my current personal project I tried to avoid that by working off a very simple theme & set of rules for the style/compositions. Leave these vague enough where if I get inspired by something I see, I can incorporate it into the project, but structured enough where a lot of the questions & world building/style issues are already answered. So connecting back to the interview, I think that if you don’t have a grand original idea, it can be really healthy to keep things really simple (or borrow from classic stories) so you can allow yourself to just create.
That’s it, Pat. This is one of the reasons I’m a fan of fan art – even though it’s so pervasive. Also, it’s why I paint so much ‘Animal Farm.’ (…also, I’m obsessed with that story.)
I’ve been a big fan of animal farm for a long time & was really excited to see you using it for magic box! I even did a enviroment layout of the farm back in college around 2009: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yzlFC902mgs/Sb4RM7Vzo8I/AAAAAAAAA6k/gRUhhjQ7Aaw/s1600/est_rev_scan2.jpg
Somehow I don’t think of working off literature as ‘fan art’, but I guess in a way it is.
I haven’t tried to tell how much your podcast mean and help to me in my life and my struggles yet, because I can’t, but now let me just say for this and all the previous episodes a big WOW! And thank you, Chris so much for doing this! I certenly am waiting for the next one!
And thank you, Adam! I’ve seen your Leonardo video earlier, and it made me look at myself different on my road. I started pretty late (age 26 halfway studying architecture) to take seriously about me drawing all the time as long as I remember and decided to make it my profession. Recently I stuggle with the tought that I should get somewhewe and achieve something great finally. And the fact that I have been able to achieve to illustrate some books, wich was my dream always, made me realize that I am where I wanted to be, and still I am on the road. I don’t know if I have to find out what is the next thing I’am going to want from now on or not. But It is a great thing that I know, that I am there, where I wanted to be and not where I can ewer be. I don’t know, if it makes any sense to anyone, but … you know… these are my thoughts on the topic. Or not on the topic…
One thing is for sure: I am grateful to you, guys!
Thank you, Laci! I really appreciate the encouraging words. And yes! Keep going! It’s great that you have already accomplished so much and that is definitely something to celebrate.
Hi Laci,
Just looked at your website, really appealing characters! If you ever go in the BG design direction, studios LOOOOVE artist with architectural backgrounds, I would definitely play that up. I’ve known a few cross over’s and they do really well, because not only can they draw the buildings, but they understand how they are built.
Wow! I can’t thank you enough for pointing out these Delve Video Essays. I’m going to be sharing those with anyone I can. My main circle of friends and I are creative people all over 30, and we’ve all been struggling with feeling like we’ve missed our breakout points, but we’re still struggling/chugging along trying to improve and produce because it’s just in our hearts to keep at it.
This podcast has been particularly helpful for me because for 2015 I’m going waaaaay out of my comfort zone and working with my husband on our first illustrated book, and this podcast has given me some great thought processes to streamline our process by planning into pre-set chunks of activity with milestone creative sessions to keep us active and on-track.
Also – I now have an excuse for not having to make any dinner decisions. Finally!! I am no longer alone! Chris, you have saved my sanity.
Hahaha… That’s awesome, Michelle.
I think I said that I “never” pick the restaurant and that’s not actually true. I just try to avoid that decision as often as possible because I would rather let someone who actually cares about the restaurant choice make that decision hahaha…
I love that you’re starting this new book project. Please keep us posted on how that develops!!!
What an inspiring story Adam! Thank you for sharing your story! Hearing you say how you are always searching for change and being in uncomfortable situations so you grow as a person and artistically was a new and different concept for me.
I really have to thank you for talking about that because I’m moving to a new city and I’ll be in all kinds of uncomfortable new situations, but now I’ll try to change my perspective and welcome the challenges that come with change and not run away from it. You talked about so many points that are exact kind of struggles I’m going through now. For years I had paralyzing fear of doing something new, but as you said, our imagination runs wild unless we confront it and breakdown what would really happen. It also helps me understand that taking the time to really develop a character and the story behind it isn’t a weakness but something every storyteller and artist should strive to achieve.
2015 will be the year I go deeper into my weaknesses (fears) and strengths and work to improve them, and not be afraid but embrace the challenges in my path of becoming a visual storyteller and help people through my art.
Thank you Chris and thank you Adam for the fantastic and inspiring interview.
Thank you, Maria! …and I have to say I’m slightly jealous that you’re going to be living in such an AWESOME city!!!
very interesting and helpful, sometimes I need to remind myself that I have to not give up and be patient, and that the process is most important
Sometimes I get frustrated but I have my goals insights.
Regards
Amalz
Yes, Amalz! Don’t give up. Also, you’ll notice that the path is rarely ever straight. It winds and bends and doubles-back on itself… And as you say, that IS the process.
I’ve been looking forward to this podcast for weeks! The Da Vinci videos were soooo encouraging to me and my husband in our creative pursuits (art, music, and storytelling). Thank you so much for making them, Adam! I also really identified with the part of the podcast where you talk about the process of going from nebulous to tangible with stories. So frustrating. Right now, I’m trying to learn when to push through the vagueness, and when to wait and let the idea form on its own.
I have a lot of goals for 2015, but one that I’ve already started is “Sketchbook Tuesday”, where I devote time each Tuesday morning to working in my sketchbook. So far, it’s helped to recharge my creative batteries and given me the chance to explore new ideas in a non-stressful environment. I also need to get better at interacting with/helping people online. It has taken me years (quite literally) to start doing this and I’m still not very good at it. In fact, if anyone has any practical advice or tips in this area, I would very much appreciate it.
Thanks again for the awesome podcast, Chris and Adam! Can’t wait for part 2! ^_^
So glad you liked the show, Bethany! I love that you have a desire to help others. I think one important thing is to remember that you’re built to help specific kinds of people in specific ways. Just by listening to people you’ll begin to discover opportunities where your abilities align with specific needs.
“How do I do page 24?”
Right, exactly. Starting a comic project was the best thing I ever did. Drawing the same thing over and over, letting the story dictate the shot… productivity and creativity increasing!
Part of the problem these days with having the patience to make mistakes and build skills is having the financial wherewithal to be able to dedicate the necessary time. In our ruthlessly economic times, that can be a huge hurdle.
It sure can, Mike. Art and money always seem, in one way or another, to oppose each other. I think the goal is just to try to maintain a balance between the two.
Wooooow!!! Wooooow!!! Im still looking for my brain pieces! this was really really an eye and mind opener! maybe everything has changed in terms of technology and they way we all do things BUT!! the way to success is still and will be always the same A LONG RUN.
Very well-put, Javi!
Excellent podcast episode! I Just made a comment about the struggle in the last episode comments. How well planned Chris!
This past year I’ve been really getting my career thoughts together and making some big goals. I started a massive comic project that is steadily moving along and I’ve stayed committed to the checklist of what to do next (and even achieving some networking goals). What I Don’t have is a strict timeline.
So my goal for 2015 is to put my project on a refined timeline rather than just a “What to Do Next” checklist. Did I just type that? Where’s my backspace… 😛
What resonated with me is the idea of the upside-down writing pyramid. In college, I wrote all of my papers this way. In my art history capstone critiques, none of my classmates could understand why… but I needed to set everything up in order for the point to be meaningful (thank goodness my prof was on board with it)! I wonder if I’ve applied that writing tendency to my comic? And if I haven’t… maybe I should! Back to the script!
It’s great to hear that the episode resonated with you, Abrian!
Thank you for sharing! Please keep us posted as your 2015 plan develops!!!
Such a great episode! I will definitely be giving it another listen. Adam’s story is very inspirational, as well as his videos on DaVinci. It’s always so refreshing to hear about the people who worked their asses off to get what they wanted, AND didn’t just give up because they were “old”. This is such a great reminder to just enjoy the process and stop worrying so much; be a marathon runner, not a sprinter. 🙂
…what Jess said.
Love love love those videos! If Leonardo Da Vinci struggled, that makes me feel like I am on the right path! All good things in time and the whole 10,000 drawing rule, I really do believe in this. I know as artists, sometimes it feels like the struggle isn’t moving us anywhere, but I promise you, look at a piece from a year ago, to the date, and it is a great feeling to see the progress you’ve made. I had this feeling when putting my CTN portfolio together this year, all those small struggles add up.
Also I use “what is the worse thing that can happen” theory all the time! I recently asked myself that very question before leaving my full-time job for freelance. Totally worth the gamble. Great artcast as always Chris, now I’m super inspired!
Yes, Tegan. You are one of the prime examples of what good can come from just steady, focused work. So glad we helped to inspire you!
Thanks to the Oatley Academy keeping me focused!
Great videos and great podcast! Hearing about the failures of someone considered a great makes me feel better–not because of schadenfreude or anything, but because it makes me feel better about my own failures and mistakes. I think when the spotlight is always on big successes, it’s easy to sweep under the rug all the small failures that led to that moment. After all, “I failed a bunch and then had a success,” isn’t what most people want to hear, right?
For my change in 2015, I’m going to try really hard to proactively post my art online. Despite the fact that I am striving to become a professional in the next few years, I basically never post my art anywhere for two reasons: I don’t feel like anything I can do now will be good enough to show, and even if I post art, nobody will come to see it. But it was really refreshing to hear Adam talk about how you can build up this body of work so that some day when people DO come to look, there will be a treasure trove of stuff, and you’ll have gotten all of the bad things posted and out of the way back at the start. It makes me feel like I have permission both to post something that’s not what I want it to be and permission to feel OK about posting something that nobody will ever look at instead of just feeling ashamed about it. I know it will be a good habit to get into, too, but it’s just been tough to motivate myself for the above reasons!
Great stuff, Mark! Yes, as my buddy Mike Innes says: “You can’t steer a parked car.”
“You can’t steer a parked car.” << I'm remembering this quote; brilliant!
Hi Mark,
I encourage you to start posting your work ASAP. It may surprise you what people respond to, and may effect what kinda of projects you work on. Even if you feel your current stuff is week, its really cool to see an online progression through the years, documenting your artistic journey. I started my blog when I was in college & was rejected from getting in our animation program. It helped to motivate me to keep pushing forward. Something about putting work out for the world to see makes you more responsible to it (if that makes any sense). Hope thats helpful.
Loved this podcast episode! I can’t wait for part 2, sounds like it’s going to be full of even more great stuff.
There’s so many things in this episode that resonated with me that I think it’s going to take more than one listen to really soak it all up.
One thing Adam said that really stuck out, and I believe Lora mentioned the same about her comic, is that he could not have made these Delve videos without having already built the foundation of experience from his past work. Speaking to the whole glorification of youth and the race to fame before we’re 30, it’s easy to overlook the important of building experiences and knowledge before tackling bigger projects. For me, I have a project that I’ve been developing off and on for almost 10 years. My first attempt at making it into a graphic novel was pretty weak– though I’m happy for attempting in the first place– but having built more experiences now as an artist and just as an adult, I can approach my project now with a more knowledgeable mindset that I just didn’t have when I was in high school. Of course, it’s a never-ending process, and as time goes by I know I’ll continue to have more experiences that will feed back into what I produce as an artist. We need those experiences and challenges to make our art genuine, I think.
As for 2015, my goal is still to finish chapter 1 of my other graphic novel project. I think I managed to make a ton of headway this year, so I’m excited to see what’s in store in the coming months as I prepare to release it online.
Thanks for a year of awesome podcasts and articles! Come to think of it, it was early this year that I discovered this blog. Listening to your podcasts have given me a lot of encouragement and insight and really helped me when I felt like I was dragging through my career, so thank you for that, truly. 🙂
Thank you, Michelle! I’m so glad you’re staying focused on creating comics. And it’s wonderful to hear that my site has helped to encourage and inspire you in your creative journey. Keep in touch!
I too made a chapter of a comic and am now re-releasing it this year! Your previews on Facebook look great. Let us know when you’re planning to release it!
Thanks Michelle, I agree about foundations: I have found a lot of enjoyment and some progress in really focusing on getting the small things right. It’s sort of like the parts in a big complicated machine: focus on making sure each small part is done properly and when they all come together the bigger machine works on its own.
Chris, Thank you so much for another encouraging podcast.
I also want to let Adam know that ‘The Long Game’ was super encouraging to me as well. I have been fighting all this year with the idea that it is too late for me to succeed in the field of Illustration. Though I have always moved forward with my art skills since birth, I have been regretting the years of time that I wasn’t focused on a specific goal and working hard to master it. I have all the drive and determination in the world now, but I find myself looking at a goal that seems far far away. I’m 38. It seems so impossible that I could still achieve something great with my art. Your video was amazingly encouraging! The quote from Robert Greene about the years of ‘self-directed apprenticeship that gains no attention’ jumped out and slapped me in the face. I’m doing that now! I’ve already begun, I have been telling myself that regardless of the outcome I will at least improve as much as I possibly can from now on as fast as I can. 15 years of apprenticeship and then a great achievement? Ok, sign me up! I am ready to dig in and plow forward… All I really need is a little hope and faith and I can pursue with attitude.
Chris, as usual, your podcasts provide so much help! The sheer optimism and joy and drive you have comes through every time. Thanks a ton for this again. I also am really working on a way to help others like you said. I am playing around with several ideas for starting a group of some kind in our area where I can really encourage and connect creatives who are working on personal projects. Thanks again for fostering that kind of generosity in us!
Hi Misty, I’m so happy to hear that you got slapped in the face by the video and that you’re digging in for 2015 😉 Good luck!
Thank you, Misty! That’s great that you’re going to start this group. Please keep us posted on how it develops. I’m interested in eventually creating some resources to help more artists connect locally in-person.
I really love you both for sharing these thoughts. The delve videos are a treasure, just like everything on Christoatley.com and Lora Innes, Justin Copeland and Brian Mcdonald. This pulling back the curtain to reality of what it means to create something meaningful in this life is so important to hear. I am most thankful that my kids are going to have these resources even earlier than I have. Thank you!
Thanks, brother. You’re awesome.
Thanks for this interview!!!
Heard so many things that resonated. First, I loved the beginning concerning ‘what’s the worst that could happen if I attempt this?’ and the stress in the Delve videos on artists’ developing period. I’m always so scared that my initial attempts at something are a direct reflection of my artistic capabilities, and also that I won’t be able to realize my project on the emotional level I desire. It does wonders to step back and realize the worst that can happen is I learn something and keep going, and that it’s not actually that bad. The line about how we won’t turn into Gollum made me laugh with relief, so thanks for that!
I love what Adam said about how not knowing how to make ‘great’ something, stops you, and then he ‘got over that immaturity and did it anyways.’ It really reminded me of the one line from the C.S. Lewis essay, ‘On Three Ways of Writing For Children,’ when he says “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became older I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” Adam’s account was inspiring to hear.
I so agree that storytelling is one of the most potent ways for brains to make sense of things, and I am very excited to check out the rest of the Delve videos. It sounds like an incredible project.
My 2015 goal is to reach out more to other artists and to try and find groups of people I can discuss creative ideas with. I don’t lack project ideas or the ability to drive hard and work on something, but I do have a really hard time getting over shyness and connecting with others. My 2015 project goal is finish my series of short stories and illustrations! It’s encouraging and inspiring to read everyone’s creative goals above!
Thank you so much for the episode!
Thank you for the encouragement, Phoebe! Keep us posted on the development of your short stories collection. Amazing!
Chris, this is officially one of my favorite episodes of the cast. It was really inspiring. It’s made me consider a lot about my own creative process and the idea of focusing on the “long game”. And of course that’s got a lot to do with your awesome guest!
There were 2 thoughts in this episode that I think connect really well for me…
1: Your ideas around the Paperwing podcast about having that personal project with clear goals and some sort of check list to get over the blank canvas issue( I especially liked the analogy of having only 90 minutes to get work done and how effective knowing what you need to do would actually be to having a productive session)
2: Adam’s idea of getting to the bare bones of the story.
When I connected those 2 moments in my head I had a eureka moment. That’s why I’m having issues with my own personal project! I’ve done tones of writing and fleshing out backstory but I don’t have a concrete enough story and perspective to give me momentum. In a lot of ways, I’m trying to be a bit too ambitious and it’s resulted in not getting as much done as I should be.
You’re definitely a huge influence for my pursuit of my own personal project. And it’s an amazing concept. But I think I need to zoom in with the magnifying glass and get to the bare bones of this thing. How succinct can I be? I guess in a lot of ways you’ve actually said this same stuff in a similar way but something about the way those 2 points I mentioned were thought out by Adam and yourself really made me think.
Do you have any suggestions for books when it comes to ‘bare bones’ storytelling? I’m considering ‘The hero with a thousand faces’, but do you have any other suggestions that really gets to the heart of telling a story well in a simple or succinct way?
Great to hear, Stuart.
Sounds like you’re seeing clearly.
Yes, Invisible Ink, The Golden Theme, Ink Spots and Freeman (all by Brian McDonald) are absolutely essential for finding “the bare bones” as you said. My advice would be to read all of those books several times.
You can find all of those links here: http://ChrisOatley.com/pw28/
Also, you can check out Hitchcock/ Truffaut: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671604295/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0671604295&linkCode=as2&tag=chrioatl-20&linkId=HLX3JNWOEXQE4IQL
…and The Collected Works Of Paddy Chayefsky (The Television Plays): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1557831912/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1557831912&linkCode=as2&tag=chrioatl-20&linkId=SXHYB64TVGCMHVOQ
Thanks, Bud! I purchased a couple of his books that just arrived. I hope you get some of that since I followed your links! 🙂
MAJOR encouragement! Leonardo got his break at 46. I thought I missed the boat because I am 47. Thank you, thank you, thank you Chris for your awe inspiring work.
Thanks, Chris. I appreciate the encouragement, however, Adam gets all the credit for the Da Vinci revelations.
Thank you so much Chris for sharing your knowledge and promoting this community. This Artcast was especially inspiring. The art struggle is real, and we are in it together :D. It is so so worth the long hours and failing our way to success. Keep going!
Happy Holidays,
-Brenon
I love all of your podcasts! They are so inspiring and helpful. I love how you are interested in uncovering how people get from A to B to C, etc. in their careers, not just from birth to stardom. I loved here how Adam talked about an idea starting out as a vapor, much like the universe itself. I feel that too, like the entire creation process, and all of life really is just a repetition of the creation of the universe on a small scale.
Also, as Adam said, I highly recommend “The War of Art,” by Steven Pressfield.
I also love, Chris, how you crack up spontaneously. We seem to have a similar sense of humor and it’s so much fun to listen! Keep up the great work and a Happy, Healthy New Year to you and yours!!!
I am late to the table on this one and my apologies…but there are not enough words in my vocabulary to speak of the profound insight and utter impact of your lessons and how aware they make me of things I was stunningly blind to.
Dear gracious Adam, great work.
I just finished watching the two other Essays on your Vimeo channel and they were astounding and hit very close to home in both their personal relevance and their poignant timing with recent political conversations I have had.
————
As for the two Essays used for this ArtCast podcast, thank you making them.
As an illustrator, I grew up holding Da Vinci and other great artists as pillars to aspire toward but not realistic enough to reach. I have seen my personal struggle as bumps on the road and felt that they were to be expected and hoped that I would get past them to become something great. I guess you can say that I never even humanized the great artists engough to think they too struggled in the first place. Thanks for the reminder.
Chris, to answer your question about projects, routines or descisions to make a positive impact on my coming year; I have a short list needing some big action. That is how I will create the year I am meant to have. I need to fix my clock…the one in my head. I was born with a disfunctional internal clock (no concept of time, lol!) and I have come to realize I am great at having ideas and amazing at starting them yet terrible at getting them executed, even when all of the ingredients are right there. Everything is there except for the chef (my mental Man) needed to put it together and make it a meal.
This is a problem that I have discovered needs fixing because it affects more than my art life. It affects my home and family and what is worse, when it does affect the art, even that is felt across those other places too. This is where I will be working the hardest this year. Shortening the extra “crud” off of my list end being serious with what is left when the hammer drops.
I am so very thankful to you two for reminding me that even those amazing other creatives I see out there were (and are) struggling ones like me and needed the factor of time to fix themselves too.
My best to you Chris and Adam and to all of you other hard working creatives out there. Thank you for what you do!
Thank you Chris & Adam for such an engaging & enlightening interview.
Adam, your Delve videos are spot on – particularly with regards to young people & (relatively) instant gratification. Not that they aren’t willing to work for the results, but simply that they expect successful results in inordinately short periods of time.
Chris, your ability to nurse so much pertinent information from your interviews with guests & your spontaneity (as stated by Christine above) is refreshing. My response to your question of what is one new thing I can introduce to shake things up is that I will approach my canvas (paper or digital) with a plan so my 90 minutes is actually productive.
In 58 years, I’ve worn many hats, been many things. At a point in the not distant past, I was a teacher for middle & high school students in a private school. Often, they would ask about my background & the most common question was always, “what haven’t you done?”. In turn, this always led to bucket list sorts of discussions & encouragement to go out & live life.
I am reminded of a story told to me when I first left college many years ago. I was remodeling a home for a couple who happened to be lawyers, ‘tween’ work before I entered the real world of a graduate. We were discussing the future & they asked me my intent. I mentioned that I had at one point considered law school but, as I was not exactly – ahem – the best student (because I was busy off doing other things & being other places), I had discounted it as a possibility. They shared how after the war (WW II), a colleague, now much older, who was a veteran at that time, had applied to Harvard’s law school.
Prospective students were in lines meeting with admissions reps & as he moved closer to his rep’s table, he was hearing time & time again students preceding him getting turned down. These were people he had spoken with in line that he knew had the highest grades; comparatively his were mediocre. He considered simply leaving, feeling that he had no chance in this competitive environment, but ultimately stuck it out. When he met with the rep, his paperwork was reviewed for a few moments & he was asked about his reasons for applying for graduate school at Harvard. The rep informed him he was accepted.
Incredulous, he asked the rep why he would be accepted & those before him – with much better academic credentials – were denied. The answer came back: those candidates were book smart; Harvard wanted students who had experienced life & could relate with people on many levels.
One of my takeaways from your podcast is: mastering art-making – whatever the creative output is – takes time, regardless of age, so be accepting of that & don’t view it as failure. I have a better way of explaining to my naysayers why I can get away with chasing my dreams at my age 🙂
One more thought. I liked Adam’s description of helping his sister with her study of South African history & the powerful impact a narrative had on her memory of a key figure. I’m not sure where I got the reference, perhaps here in one of Chris’ blogs so I apologize for any oversight: I am reading Bruno Bettelheim’s book “The Uses of Enchantment, The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales”. The writing is a bit on the clinical side, but it is a good read on the power of fairy tales & – perhaps equally important – what is missing in today’s storytelling.
Thank you, gentlemen, & happy New Year. Deep respect for you both.
“Often, they would ask about my background & the most common question was always, “what haven’t you done?”. In turn, this always led to bucket list sorts of discussions & encouragement to go out & live life.”
This exact same thing happened to me this year, teaching to middle and high school students too.
I just didn’t know what I wanted to do for a living, but I got pregnant at 17 years old and decided to keep him.
I worked at my father’s bussiness, dealing with imports and selling to public. Finished highschool at the age of 22.
And after that I spent some time in Computer engineering and Math teaching to finally decide (for now as I’m 29) to go with art teaching. This year has been awesome, and teaching is the best I could do to improve not only my art but also myself.
It seems I always find your podcasts in the right moment.
I’ve been struggling with a lot of fears and doubts and had turned into distracting myself with a pet site (I love pet sites, it’s one of my guilty pleasures) and not drawing anymore.
It took a lot of scolding from my boyfriend and making big changes on my internet settings to get me to draw again.
And these two podcasts (delve1 and delve2) gave the final push to keep on trying.
I hope this year I can develop the story I’ve been wanting to do for 3 years now.
One thing I have as an advantage is that I get totally irritated if I stay on my comfort zone, so I’m always challenging myself. I grew too used to draw with a pencil (and fear and hate ink) so I decided I will draw everything I do for practice in ink. Then hated everything I did.
I’ve been studying perspective and technical drawing for teaching and teaching. I learnt a lot from teaching to kids, both about how to teach and getting involved with them and about art techniques. It really does help setting the knowledge in stone. I love teaching and will probably do it my whole life.
To anyone that’s reading this, please, if you have the chance, teach someone. It’s one of the best experiences you can have, and it will help you a lot with your art too.
Thanks a lot for everything, your podcasts mean a lot for me and I’ve been following them for 3 or 4 years. I was just too shy and not confident enough to comment.
I think I must have listened to this episode at least like 10 times.
thank you so much. this was amazing.
The subject really hits home so deeply for me. i feel like i’m no where near where I want to be in my art career. and there is this weird pressure to prove yourself young instead of fine tuning a beautiful talent over a lifetime. Chris, you often reminds us is that this is a life calling not something to race through.
i often feel pressured by things like Instagram. when i see the pages of some artists that post (what feels like) everyday I feel that i need to keep up or i’ll be left behind. it’s hard to remember that’s not what it’s about at all. and often when i post something in a hurry i’m embarrassed the next day that i showed the world something thats below my standard just because i rushed. and for what?! so i can put something on instagram.?! that’s crazy.
my boyfriend often tells me to calm down and take my time. i’m getting better i just need to be diligent and vigilant. he says first you get good, then you get fast, then you get fast and good.
I also found it interesting when you discussed wrapping up stories too neatly like in true grit , the difference between wrapping up a story too tightly vs too much meandering. this is a topic i struggle with my own story lines.
i feel there are some directors that are popular that have so many loop holes and empty ends in their stories but hide it with a lot of big speeches and epic subject matter.
your 2nd podcast with brian mcdonald approached a similar topic when you discussed when people are too quick to tie things up.
this makes me wonder what is the difference between sloppy story telling with too many loose ands and tying things up so tightly that you can’t get lost in the story? at what point am i getting carried away writing about my characters that i am getting away from the point? or am i so wrapped up in the plot that i am not giving any changes to get attached to my characters?
thanks again for another amazing podcast. also as of december i am a magic box student. hurray!!! so thank you for everything. it’s all been so amazing.
I completely agree with you about the instagram thing! I love following artists on it but when I check it every day and see them doing amazing sketches all the time like its nothing it can become quite discouraging!
I’m yet to listen to the Podcast, but I just watched both ‘Delve’ videos and feel quite emotional. As an artist that falls into the ‘older’ (ie post-30) category, these videos speak to me so much and make me feel a LOT less stressed about being the age I am, at the level I am artistically. It’s all about the long game, not the quick fix. Thanks Chris and Adam!
This is so refreshing to hear about Da Vinci. Champions aren’t born, they are made. I think an interesting topic for a new podcast would be something about the connection between practicing your art and how athletes practice skills to be good at their sport. For example we never would think any olympic athlete can practice part time and get a gold medal, it requires years of daily practice!
Its just that practice ain’t glamourous. (Even though I still gush over Da Vinci’s sketchbook pages!)
Hello! Long time listener. First time… Comment…er.
So many things clicked in my brain while listening to this podcast! Especially when Adam mentioned James Cameron talking about the formation of a story as being a nebulous gas, eventually forming a solid object in the very last days. And sitting on uncertainty… Fantastic stuff! Everything in this podcast is more or less directly applying to the project that I’m working on right now, where I’m swimming through pages and pages of sketches and storyboards and I have no idea (specifically) which direction to take it… But I’m keeping myself calm and on track with a schedule and little bite sized items for each week and each day, just like Adam and Chris mentioned. It’s really cool to see the process I’m using being validated by people who make such great work!
Wow Chris and Adam –
Thank you for this – makes me not feel too old, I am close to hitting 35 years of age, and was starting to feel that I might have spent too much time persuing what I want without really seeing any improvement. That being said, when I look back on my older stuff I can see that I have improved greatly, but since i am the one looking at it and have done all my life it seems indifferent and unchainged. Just like when you look at yourself in the mirror you can’t really see yourself getting older, becouse you see yourself everyday.
I also have a problem that I use to draw alot of fantasy and abstract stuff, and lately have started drawing more sci-fi and realistic, so I have a hard time comparing.
I started at the age of 17 at the Marbella Design Accademy, where I studied interior architecture for 4 years, and then real life hit and I had to take a different path and education, but 4 years aggo I choose to change back to art, and it has taken about 4 years for me to see that I am as good or better than, when I was a tween.
I am taking it easy with my projects, seems that is what everyone is advising, but I do try to work actively on it, and if not then I pressure myself to at least think about it.
Sometimes I just need to get away from it, and get my mind on other things, and knowing that, that is what others are doing has helped me not feel so lazy and not stress out about not doing stuff within my own set deadline, I mean I can just change the deadline, no biggie.
Thanks guys for being such good mentors and teachers
Huggs your awsome, Really you are… and you should be proud of what you are doing becouse you are really helping, wish I could send you both flowers.
Best regards
Anders Ahm Jensen
currently studying at OALive also known as Cray Cray Live 😉